End of purgatory in Revelation

[derekohachey]

Hello Folks,

Just wondering in Rev 20:14 (“Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;” NRSV), does Hades refer to purgatory?

Also throughout the New Testament, were all the human authors when referring to Hades were they referring to purgatory, and when they refer to Gehenna they refer to what we term as Hell (I know Gehenna is physically/materiastically the trash dump next to Jerusalem)?

I thought I heard Scott Hahn making the assertion that I summarized in the second paragraph.

Thanks & God Bless
Derek

 

[NHInsider]

I’m not sure we can state with certainty what any of the images in Apocalyptic literature mean, but the “end of purgatory” interpretation certainly makes sense.

 

[COPLAND_3]

No, Hades is the place of punishment for the souls of the unsaved, while Purgatory is a place only for the saved to be cleaned up before they enter Heaven. Here is a complete explanation of those places of the afterlife litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Heaven%2C+Hell%2C+and+the+Afterlife

By the way, Gehenna is the same as the Lake of Fire because it will be the place where the unsaved will be cast body and soul, while Hades is the place the unsaved will be but only their souls, and they await the resurrection when they will be reunited body and soul and then cast into the Lake of Fire\Gehenna which is the 2nd death.

 

[diggerdomer]

“Purgatory” as the Church came to understand and explain it came much later than the Bible, so the Biblical human authors would not have been referring to the later Church understanding of it.

 

[COPLAND_3]

“Purgatory” as the Church came to understand and explain it came much later than the Bible, so the Biblical human authors would not have been referring to the later Church understanding of it.

And, like the Trinity, the belief was always there but it became more clear and more fully understood as time went on, leading the Church to explain it with more detail and with a wider vocabulary.

 

[derekohachey]

Thanks for your help folks…

One more related question. This may be nothing but why do you suppose the expression “death and hades” is together in Rev 1:18, 20:13 & 20:14? Aren’t they one in the same or is this just a mode of expression of Hell by John in the book of Revelation

Thanks again,
Derek

 

[diggerdomer]

And, like the Trinity, the belief was always there but it became more clear and more fully understood as time went on, leading the Church to explain it with more detail and with a wider vocabulary.

I’m not questioning Church teaching on Purgatory.

I do question whether it can be claimed that the teaching is present in Scripture. Augustine, almost 400 years after the New Testament, only reluctantly admitted the possibility of a Scriptural basis for it (1 Cor), and it seemed a stretch at that.

It can be true whether or not it was mentioned in Scripture.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Thanks for your help folks…

One more related question. This may be nothing but why do you suppose the expression “death and hades” is together in Rev 1:18, 20:13 & 20:14? Aren’t they one in the same or is this just a mode of expression of Hell by John in the book of Revelation

Thanks again,
Derek

That is somewhat obscure, and I see that it is interpreted in varius ways by commentators.

St. Bede gave the idea that it is talking about “death” as the bodies of the unsaved that are raised at the resurrection while “Hades” refers to their souls that are in Hades, and at that time they will be reunited and cast body and soul= death and hades, into the Lake of Fire.

 

[COPLAND_3]

I’m not questioning Church teaching on Purgatory.

I do question whether it can be claimed that the teaching is present in Scripture. Augustine, almost 400 years after the New Testament, only reluctantly admitted the possibility of a Scriptural basis for it (1 Cor), and it seemed a stretch at that.

It can be true whether or not it was mentioned in Scripture.

The teaching can be found in the writings of the NT apocrypha and Early Church Fathers of the 2nd century, which is well before St. Augustine, as this shows catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

 

[diggerdomer]

The teaching can be found in the writings of the NT apocrypha and Early Church Fathers of the 2nd century, which is well before St. Augustine, as this shows catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

Ok, so we agree then it’s not in the New Testament?

Also, it’s not conclusive that the sources you cite are referring to Purgatory as Purgatory came to be later defined/understood by the Church. Did their references influence the understanding of Purgatory? Sure, why not. Were they teaching the same thing that the Church later clearly defined as Purgatory…ummm…not so sure. Not that it matters, in the end, of course, for anyone accepting Church teaching on Purgatory.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Ok, so we agree then it’s not in the New Testament?

Also, it’s not conclusive that the sources you cite are referring to Purgatory as Purgatory came to be later defined/understood by the Church. Did their references influence the understanding of Purgatory? Sure, why not. Were they teaching the same thing that the Church later clearly defined as Purgatory…ummm…not so sure. Not that it matters, in the end, of course, for anyone accepting Church teaching on Purgatory.

No, I do believe that St. Paul is talking about Purgatory in 1 Cor. 3.

Again, when you say Purgatory as the Purgatory as defined by the Church, I would consider it like the Trinity belief as compared to how it was fully defined later by the Church. Same belief, just more developed as time went on. It is referred to as “development of doctrine.”

 

[diggerdomer]

No, I do believe that St. Paul is talking about Purgatory in 1 Cor. 3.

Again, when you say Purgatory as the Purgatory as defined by the Church, I would consider it like the Trinity belief as compared to how it was fully defined later by the Church. Same belief, just more developed as time went on. It is referred to as “development of doctrine.”

Ok. Just be aware that no one until Augustine, ca. 400 A.D., interpreted the passage you note in a way that clearly led to the later Church’s explicit understanding of Purgatory. And even Augustine was pretty reluctant on the issue.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Ok. Just be aware that no one until Augustine, ca. 400 A.D., interpreted the passage you note in a way that clearly led to the later Church’s explicit understanding of Purgatory. And even Augustine was pretty reluctant on the issue.

I understand what you are saying, and it may appear to be an exegetical risk, but I feel very comfortable considering I am in very good company with those such as St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, the Council of Florence, St. Ambrose, Theodoret, St. Anselm, etc.

I take similar positions on passages like Revelation 12 where I believe that the primary interpretation is Marian, even though it has little patristic backing.