End of the Church

[hansard]

Excuse the antagonistic-sounding thread title

When Christ returns, there will be no need for a Church, will there? I mean, the Church is, in effect, God’s people in waiting for his return.
It’s a temporary measure. The Church is an earthly, human thing; when all the faithful have been glorified, all human concerns will cease.
Does this sound right?

 

[Lizziebel]

Well, we do talk about the Church Triumphant in Heaven. The members of the Church will be there, though, and we may still call ourselves the Church there.

But it does make sense that the purpose for which the Church was established on Earth would be completed at the Last Judgment. The Church was instituted to reveal God’s word to us, help us grow in faith and love, and to help us get to Heaven. At Christ’s return, all will be revealed to everyone. Faith will no longer be necessary, because we will see and experience for ourselves all we believe in faith now. And all of us will be in our final destination.

 

[judechild]

Excuse the antagonistic-sounding thread title

When Christ returns, there will be no need for a Church, will there? I mean, the Church is, in effect, God’s people in waiting for his return.
It’s a temporary measure. The Church is an earthly, human thing; when all the faithful have been glorified, all human concerns will cease.
Does this sound right?

I think you’re on the right track, but the Church is not just “an earthly, human thing.” St. Augustine sees her this way: “The Church even now is the kingdom of Christ and the kingdom of heaven. Even now His saints reign with Him…”. So with this view, the Church is in fact the kingdom of Heaven seen now in an incomplete way, and at the end-of-time she will be perfected. Based on this, I don’t believe there will ever be an “end to the Church”.

 

[hansard]

Thanks, judechild

I’ll assume that the Augustine quotes are accurate.

I recognise Augustine as a great scholar, but I have had endless problems with some of his theology:
How can the saints be reigning WITH Christ? Isn’t Christ the king of kings–that is, He alone, and no-one else? Who ever said anything about this distribution of monarchical power to a bunch of saints, who are really just some dead people who lived well?
I guess Augustine means "reigning ALONGSIDE Christ (with him, but not equal to him). That would make sense.

“The Church even now is the kingdom of Christ, and the kingdom of Heaven”.
Oh, come on, St Augustine: this is the kind of waffle and platitude that sends the faithful into a torpor.
Read it again: “The Church EVEN NOW is the kingdom of Christ.” Okay. What happens when the kingdom of God is established on earth at the end of time (I distinctly recall reading this in scripture)? Hang on, it’s already here now. So, we’re gonna have this kingdom of Christ, which will have been here for many years (“EVEN NOW”), then this new kingdom of God to be freshly established… no, it doesn’t make sense. A kingdom is a kingdom, with a king. Not an imaginary, feel-good king; not a king in Heaven, ruling in absentia; not a touchy-feely concept in our hearts. I don’t see any Christ-like king on earth at the moment. Were he here, I feel certain that he would have made himself noticed by now.

Look at the next bit: “and the Kingdom of Heaven”.
So, the quote is “The Church, even now is… the kingdom of Heaven”.
If the Church is the kingdom of Heaven, then why are we so concerned about getting to Heaven? It seems like Heaven is already here, EVEN NOW, and that it is synonymous with the Church. What does this even mean? The Church is Heaven–that’s what the quote really means, in essence. Heaven is the Church.
Sorry, but this makes no sense at all. It’s just a feel-good platitude.

It’s a bit like the priests of my youth who proclaimed “The Kingdom of God is within our hearts.”
No, it isn’t. Evil and sin are within our hearts, and will be until the last days, when Christ will expunge all evil.

I honestly thought the Kingdom of God (i.e. the End of Time) was still a fundamental part of Catholic theology.

 

[judechild]

Okay, those are good points. The first part, I guess can be seen as similar to the verse in scripture (can’t remember the verse) that says we “make up for what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ” (paraphrased); what’s lacking in the sufferings of Christ? Of course nothing, but He allows us a part in it, and therein lies the honor.

The second part - about the Church being the Kingdom of Heaven now in a less clear form - I will try to defend with Matthew 13:24 - 30 (the parable of the weeds and the wheat). In this, Jesus says that the Kingdom of heaven has both weeds and wheat growing in it. Will there be weeds in the Kingdom at the end of time and when Heaven is seen in its fullness? Again, of course not.

Again, I don’t believe Augustine is saying that the Church on earth is what the perfected Heaven will exactly look like, but Revelation also contains quite a bit of imagery that connects the Church and Heaven.

It’s good that we can have an intelligent discussion on this!

 

[hansard]

Hey Judechild
Thanks for being so gracious in the face of my cynicism. I certainly did not intend to create a situation where you might have felt that you had to quote chapter-and-verse. Religious discussions can be rather intense!
I’m just on some stupid quest to sort out some…erm…irregularities.

Thanks
Chris

 

[Monica4316]

Excuse the antagonistic-sounding thread title

When Christ returns, there will be no need for a Church, will there? I mean, the Church is, in effect, God’s people in waiting for his return.
It’s a temporary measure. The Church is an earthly, human thing; when all the faithful have been glorified, all human concerns will cease.
Does this sound right?

Hi,

no… the Church is made up of three “parts”: the Church militant (on earth), the Church triumphant (in Heaven), and the Church suffering (in Purgatory). Once people die, they don’t stop being part of the Church, and when the world will end, the Church will continue… it’s not just God’s people waiting for His return, but God’s people in general.

Church militant will end, but not Church triumphant…

the Church is not an earthly human thing, it transcends this world and is the “image” (not sure which word to use…) of the way the world will be someday… united to the Father through the Son.

Actually …the Eucharist is very much related to this…
we receive Christ’s Body and Blood, and become His Body on earth…
definitely not just a human organization

 

[dixibehr]

Excuse the antagonistic-sounding thread title

When Christ returns, there will be no need for a Church, will there? I mean, the Church is, in effect, God’s people in waiting for his return.
It’s a temporary measure. The Church is an earthly, human thing; when all the faithful have been glorified, all human concerns will cease.
Does this sound right?

Doesn’t sound right at all.

The visible earthly part of the Church is NOT her fulness that will be revealed when Christ returns.

Of the invisible parts of the church, some are in heaven, awaiting for the reunion of their souls with their glorified, resurrected bodies (Church Triumphant). Some are undergoing final purification to be able to enter and enjoy heaven (Church Suffering or Church Expectant).

 

[Watchman]

How can the saints be reigning WITH Christ? Isn’t Christ the king of kings–that is, He alone, and no-one else? Who ever said anything about this distribution of monarchical power to a bunch of saints?

Well, John, for one:

Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 (New International Version)