And that seems to have been a failed experiment.
The priest’s duty is to do the work of God…full time. Not doing 9 to 5 at the factory and then ministering as an extra…
End the bottleneck to grace: An alternative way in which to form and deploy new priests
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The priest’s duty is to do the work of God…full time. Not doing 9 to 5 at the factory and then ministering as an extra…
Your starting point assumes that people want priests to minister to them. If people wanted to avail themselves of the sacraments, they could easily do that. It’s not hard to find a Church with mass and confession.
People are no more likely to go to mass/confession at work than they are in a Church.
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Cruciferi
Guest
Agreed. It couldn’t hurt for a priest to know a trade though. Tent making and fishing could be useful during the lean times. Me, I’ll just forage throughout the forest eating beech nuts, acorn, pine nuts, garlic mustard 
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Xantippe
Guest
Yes–I feel like I’ve bumped into a lot of ex-engineer priests.
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Cruciferi
Guest
I knew a former car salesman who became a priest :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:
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PetraG
Guest
I think many of the older men who now become permanent deacons would become priests–and really good ones–if at least older men could be ordained to the priesthood while married. Based on the example of the permanent deacons, it makes sense that these established marriages and life-matured men could minister quite well without undue stress on the formation of their marriages or the raising of their children.
Yes, I think the faithful would avail themselves of the sacraments more frequently if there were more priests. Still, I do not think that is a simple function of more-bodies-closer-to-work. A holy priest can do immeasurable good, but a poorly-formed one can do a great deal of harm. There is a limit to how much independent study can replace study in close proximity to other seminarians and a faculty carefully chosen by the bishop. The years of formation have a great more to them than developing a knowledge base and academic skills. There is much more too it than could be covered via satellite learning alone.
Men with degrees in the hard sciences often have the academic ability to do quite well in seminary.
Yes, I think the faithful would avail themselves of the sacraments more frequently if there were more priests. Still, I do not think that is a simple function of more-bodies-closer-to-work. A holy priest can do immeasurable good, but a poorly-formed one can do a great deal of harm. There is a limit to how much independent study can replace study in close proximity to other seminarians and a faculty carefully chosen by the bishop. The years of formation have a great more to them than developing a knowledge base and academic skills. There is much more too it than could be covered via satellite learning alone.
Archbishop Sample in Oregon has his master’s degree in metallurgical engineering, too.
Men with degrees in the hard sciences often have the academic ability to do quite well in seminary.
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PetraG
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I have to think that it also had a lot to do with what kept married people from staying married, what lead companies to put the bottom line ahead of their workforce, and what lead that generation to hold down so many more different jobs than earlier generations. The Pope has noticed it–commitment is not something people want to make for a lifetime any more.
Honestly, I think World War I and World War II did far more damage to Christendom than any philosophy. Those wars and the economic depression between them devastated nations and generations. I suspect there was a bouyant period of glad-we’re-through-that try at optimism that failed to address all the damage done. The deep damage was ignored, but it didn’t magically go away. The piper eventually had to be paid.
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Augustinian
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With young men in that era, they knew that enrollment in a seminary or a religious order could earn them a deferment from military conscription. Once the draft was over or they reached an age they didn’t have to worry about it, a number of the men reconsidered their vocations. BTW, this just wasn’t with Catholic men, by any stretch of the imagination.
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babochka
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This is funny. I once met a priest, a widower, who was a late vocation. Inhis previous life he had been a tent maker.Agreed. It couldn’t hurt for a priest to know a trade though. Tent making and fishing could be useful during the lean times. Me, I’ll just forage throughout the forest eating beech nuts, acorn, pine nuts, garlic mustard
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Augustinian
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I didn’t even know that there were tentmakers in the current era.
I think the “tent making” and “fishing” references were to Peter and Paul, not that any significant number of people earn a living in those ways today.
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commenter
Guest
When we neglect Philosophy, we don’t erase philosophy, we get very, very bad philosophy. Thus the wars, Modernism, Communism, and abortion and same sex marriage. The need for priests (and laity) to have extensive training in philosophy is greater now than ever before, because bad philosophy is far more powerful.Erikaspirit16:
Honestly, I think World War I and World War II did far more damage to Christendom than any philosophy. Those wars and the economic depression between them devastated nations and generations. I suspect there was a bouyant period of glad-we’re-through-that try at optimism that failed to address all the damage done. The deep damage was ignored, but it didn’t magically go away.
It is tempting to argue priests need more formation in the “real world” and after ordination spend most of their time there too, rather than reading Thomas Aquinas. But if people don’t think the Church has anything different to offer people, they won’t come.
Where I live there are lots of non-judgmental, friendly, accessible, relevant- to-today, outreaching, Catholic and Protestant churches that have almost no people. If the Church’s message is I’m OK, You’re OK, why bother going to the priest, even if he gets a 9 - 5 desk job next to you?
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Erikaspirit16
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Good point. However, it doesn’t cover nuns! Or the older men who also dropped out in big numbers.
Going back to the original question, I think you need to analyze (which may have already been done in some book I’m unaware of) why both men and women left religious orders in overwhelming numbers in the 60s and 70s. There are all sorts of reasons, I’m sure, but I’m also sure you could probably come up with a few ultimate reasons. Once you knew why all these people left, then you could find out why the others stayed. And when you figured that out, you would know how to recruit today.
I have read a couple books by ex-nuns, and just judging from those, it’s pathetic. It’s sort of like someone dropping out of West Point and complaining “They made us march! Can you imagine? What sort of place is that?” In other words, they seemed to be clueless as to what religious life was. I’ve also known personally a couple ex-nuns. I worked for one once. I didn’t have a clue. Then she walked in one day, plopped down a book about ex-nuns and said “Look at page x, that’s me.” I see she’s now written an entire book on her own experiences.
Motivation is complex, and it’s rare that anyone does anything significant for a single reason (“Why do you love him/her?” “Why did you get married?” “Why did you become a priest?”). However, I think we could all agree that there are any number of “bad” reasons for doing something.
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commenter
Guest
St. John Paul II inspired a whole generation to reconsider joining religious life and Holy Orders. He partially reversed the decline in seminarians by reaffirming what the priesthood actually is about, and reaffirming clear doctrine.
In my diocese there are about 8 priests retiring each year, some I know to be liberal, others conservative. We have about 4 ordinations each year, all conservative to my knowledge. The liberal kinds of men who joined the seminary decades ago are now going into social work, politics, or media.
He did not appear to have much impact on existing, mainstream convents. However those women who have been joining the convent in recent years have joined convents that either never went through the liberalizing phase, or are brand new, and very orthodox.
In my diocese there are about 8 priests retiring each year, some I know to be liberal, others conservative. We have about 4 ordinations each year, all conservative to my knowledge. The liberal kinds of men who joined the seminary decades ago are now going into social work, politics, or media.
He did not appear to have much impact on existing, mainstream convents. However those women who have been joining the convent in recent years have joined convents that either never went through the liberalizing phase, or are brand new, and very orthodox.
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Mi_Rose
Guest
I am old enough to remember when women had few job choices and not many had college educations. Nuns were an exception. They could be involved in the administration of their order or the ministries it ran,such as hospitals in a time when the only job a lay woman could get in a hospital not run by an order of nuns was a nurse. All school principals were men too, except in Catholic schools.
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PetraG
Guest
Listening to the philosophical gymnastics by which same sex marriage is rationalized, it is all built upon the twisting of the understanding of marriage that followed widespread use of artificial birth control and then the acceptance of artficial insemination and surrogacy.
Marriage has become a matter of civic recognition of the adult you chose to share a relationship of mutual responsibility and what kind of tax category you’re in. Marriage, procreation and parenthood have been divorced. What no one has yet admitted in the circles that accept all this is that children have become chattel who exist for the gratification and fulfillment of their legal parents.
Marriage has become a matter of civic recognition of the adult you chose to share a relationship of mutual responsibility and what kind of tax category you’re in. Marriage, procreation and parenthood have been divorced. What no one has yet admitted in the circles that accept all this is that children have become chattel who exist for the gratification and fulfillment of their legal parents.
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commenter
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St. JP II helped open the bottleneck to vocations by affirming the supernatural character of Holy Orders. In teaching after teaching he emphasized the unique role priests play in the life of the Church and humanity. Priests teach, but they are more than teachers. Priests do social work, but they are more than social workers.
Priests, like everybody else, should try to be generous, forgiving caring, friendly, open minded rather than rigid, humble, not grasping for higher positions, and so on, but that is not specifically what makes them priests. It should go along with their baptism; some priests (and laity) fall short of course.
St. JP II’s emphasis on the specific supernatural and social aspects of the priesthood, (and also the other good characteristics good priests share with all the baptized) helped bring about the minor boom in vocations at least in orthodox religious orders and dioceses.
In the last 4 years we have heard a great deal from the Vatican about priests who are rigid, uncaring, grasping for promotions, judgmental, and so on, and on, and on. We have heard about the need for priests to be humble, caring, accessible, open minded, forgiving, and many other good qualities that laypeople also need. It ideally should come as part of their baptism (priests and laity).
Has any one heard much about the specific nature of the priesthood in the last 4 years? About the supernatural aspect of Holy Orders? We do hear about the need for priests to become nice guys, but is there any reason being proclaimed for nice guys to become priests?
Is a new bottleneck being formed?
Priests, like everybody else, should try to be generous, forgiving caring, friendly, open minded rather than rigid, humble, not grasping for higher positions, and so on, but that is not specifically what makes them priests. It should go along with their baptism; some priests (and laity) fall short of course.
St. JP II’s emphasis on the specific supernatural and social aspects of the priesthood, (and also the other good characteristics good priests share with all the baptized) helped bring about the minor boom in vocations at least in orthodox religious orders and dioceses.
In the last 4 years we have heard a great deal from the Vatican about priests who are rigid, uncaring, grasping for promotions, judgmental, and so on, and on, and on. We have heard about the need for priests to be humble, caring, accessible, open minded, forgiving, and many other good qualities that laypeople also need. It ideally should come as part of their baptism (priests and laity).
Has any one heard much about the specific nature of the priesthood in the last 4 years? About the supernatural aspect of Holy Orders? We do hear about the need for priests to become nice guys, but is there any reason being proclaimed for nice guys to become priests?
Is a new bottleneck being formed?
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PetraG
Guest
Pope Francis has often exhorted young people to be willing to make a definitive commitment. This is a contemporary barrier to both marriage and consecrated celibacy.
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commenter
Guest
True.
JP II did that as well. But JP II also reflected the unique, supernatural and social character of the priesthood in many other areas of doctrinal or practical instruction, not just when he was primarily focusing on priesthood. He did not just give a “vocations talk”, consider being a priest! He explained how priesthood is related to belief and practice ** in context**
of Christian Catholic heritage and dogma, social and supernatural. That context is what young Catholics especially are missing today.
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