End Times?

[Barbkw]

…the verse you referenced says nothing about the sun consuming the earth.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; then…”

As soon as a star creates iron, it self destructs. Scientists predict that our Sun will consume the Earth before it self destructs.

 

[PJM]

=Hiskid1973;7803809]Your church believes in the rapture/being caught up…It’s when Christ appears in the clouds and the dead are raised and rise with the living believer to meet Christ in the clouds…That is after the time of great tribulation…Some believe He returns and removes His church before the heavy stuff goes down…It’s a timing issue rather than “caught up” issue…

Rapture as beleived by the Protestant community at large is not biblical. There are only TWO Judgements: 1. Immediately upon death 2. The Final Judgement at the end of time; which some assume to be an additional “comming.”

READ Mt. 24…

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Hiskid1973]

. I want to see HIM! I want to see life everlasting!

He is risen, ICXC NIKA

You are not alone…This older mortal body groans for the immortal one( I fell off the back of a railroad car)…The fall wasn’t bad but being stopped by the rail and macadam didn’t feel so good…I just want to see Him as He is…

 

[Church_Militant]

There’s quite a few good articles and Catholic Bible studies around that will help wit this.

My own blog article. The Rapture?

Catholic Answers: The Rapture

If they are fans of the Left Behind series, the following CA article will help as well. Catholic Answers Special Report: False Profit

John Martignoni’s Bible Christian Society has these notes on his website that goes with his free MP3 download entitled The Rapture and the Bible. One thing I might suggest is that you is download it, burn it to a CD and print out the notes and then (after listening to it and studying it yourself of course) pass on a copy to your relatives.

If, as you say. they are Baptist types, then John’s study will resonate with them because in some ways he sounds a little like a Baptist preacher.

 

[beegirl]

thanks for ur replies…I think I get it now
Great links, Church Militant!
And I’m glad GEddie could add a little humor to the thread

 

[GEddie]

I like that!! I’m gonna shamelessly steal it. I am now officially a pan-tribulationist. Woo-hoo!! Can we start a fan club; get T-shirts?

Bravo!!!

Where in STX are you? We could make the T-shirts, get together for pan pizza

He is risen, ICXC NIKA

 

[GEddie]

thanks for ur replies…I think I get it now
Great links, Church Militant!
And I’m glad GEddie could add a little humor to the thread

Thanx chica

He is risen, ICXC NIKA

 

[Faith1960]

My parents (former catholic and a Baptist) are really interested in End Times prophecy and the Rapture. I was raised as a Baptist, and it’s a big thing in most churches. Recently the pastor at the church started a bible study over the books of Daniel and Revelation. However, he feels that the “second coming” will occur before he can even finish the lecture series.

Lately its all my mom wants to talk about. She lost her job a few weeks ago, and she joking said “maybe it’s a good thing I lost my job, the way pastor talks we’re not going to be here on earth much longer anyway.”

I do know there’s a verse in Matthew that says “But of that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.” So how can anyone make predictions like that?

I don’t know why…but this topic makes me really uncomfortable. I don’t know if that’s normal or not. I guess I don’t understand much about it – from either perspective…Catholic or Protestant. Can someone explain to me (in layman’s terms please) the Catholic view on this topic?

Thanks.

PS…I’m sure there are a least a few other threads about this. I’ve read a couple but I still dont’ understand this topic very clearly. Sorry to repeat

I choose to believe our Pope: timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5346356.ece

 

[skigirl1689]

Just for the record, not all Protestants believe in the Rapture, at least being raised in a traditional Lutheran church informed me of this. Their belief was similar, if not the same as, the Catholic belief concerning the End Times.

Personally, I don’t think it matters when/how the Second Coming occurs, just that we are ready. But seeing how messed up the world is and how it is not getting better, I think Christ may return sooner rather than later.

But who knows? I am still working towards my college degree and planning for the future. Heck, I even may live as long as my grandma, she was 92 when she passed.

God Bless,
Rebecca

 

[Church_Militant]

thanks for ur replies…I think I get it now
Great links, Church Militant!
And I’m glad GEddie could add a little humor to the thread

No problem sister. Glad I could be of some help.

Just for the record, not all Protestants believe in the Rapture, at least being raised in a traditional Lutheran church informed me of this. Their belief was similar, if not the same as, the Catholic belief concerning the End Times.

Personally, I don’t think it matters when/how the Second Coming occurs, just that we are ready. But seeing how messed up the world is and how it is not getting better, I think Christ may return sooner rather than later.

But who knows? I am still working towards my college degree and planning for the future. Heck, I even may live as long as my grandma, she was 92 when she passed.

God Bless,
Rebecca

Hi Rebecca,

That’s a very good point and I’m glad you made it because it’s easy to generalize and usually when we do we err.

Hopefully some of the links I gave will also help you to better explain and defend your faith as well.
The peace of the Lord be with you always.

 

[Lev23]

My parents (former catholic and a Baptist) are really interested in End Times prophecy and the Rapture. I was raised as a Baptist, and it’s a big thing in most churches. Recently the pastor at the church started a bible study over the books of Daniel and Revelation. However, he feels that the “second coming” will occur before he can even finish the lecture series.

Lately its all my mom wants to talk about. She lost her job a few weeks ago, and she joking said “maybe it’s a good thing I lost my job, the way pastor talks we’re not going to be here on earth much longer anyway.”

I do know there’s a verse in Matthew that says “But of that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.” So how can anyone make predictions like that?

I don’t know why…but this topic makes me really uncomfortable. I don’t know if that’s normal or not. I guess I don’t understand much about it – from either perspective…Catholic or Protestant. Can someone explain to me (in layman’s terms please) the Catholic view on this topic?

Thanks.

PS…I’m sure there are a least a few other threads about this. I’ve read a couple but I still dont’ understand this topic very clearly. Sorry to repeat

thanks for ur replies…I think I get it now
Great links, Church Militant!
And I’m glad GEddie could add a little humor to the thread

Can you explain what you get now? Are you sure you get it? And who is “predicting” anything? From reading what you wrote, there doesn’t seem to be any predicting going on from your parents or their pastor. It is tongue-in-cheek humor about the conditions of the world today and the imminence of the pre-tribulation rapture event.

I’ll give you a brief explanation of the pre-tribulation rapture, so you understand the issue at hand a little better.

The pre-tribulation rapture is an imminent, future event of Jesus Christ catching up His Church before the appointed remaining last seven years Israel has allotted for her to fulfill(Dan 9). During the seven years, Israel will consist of Christ’s 144,000 “servants of God” from the 12 tribes of Israel and of course, hardened Israel. But peoples from all over the earth will come to salvation during that time(Revelation7), which is consistent with how both Jew and Gentile come to Christ now and make up the church.

Right before the second coming of Christ to Israel, hardened Israel will turn back to God the way God wants them to turn to Him, by His one and only Son Jesus. It will be like what happened in Egypt, when Joseph revealed who he really was to His brothers. Jesus Christ did say-“For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”(Matt23:39) Catholics will say this verse is said during the liturgy of the Mass. Very well. But hardened Israel will say this at the second coming of Jesus Christ to Israel.

When Israel finally turns to Jesus Christ at His second coming to Israel-
**Psalm118:26
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD.
From the house of the LORD we bless you.

Matthew 23:39
"For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Zechariah 12:10
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.**

 

[Church_Militant]

Can you explain what you get now? Are you sure you get it? And who is “predicting” anything? From reading what you wrote, there doesn’t seem to be any predicting going on from your parents or their pastor. It is tongue-in-cheek humor about the conditions of the world today and the imminence of the pre-tribulation rapture event.

Any chance you could post with more Christian charity?
Now let’s have a look at what you tell us you believe.

I’ll give you a brief explanation of the pre-tribulation rapture, so you understand the issue at hand a little better.

The pre-tribulation rapture is an imminent, future event of Jesus Christ catching up His Church before the appointed remaining last seven years Israel has allotted for her to fulfill(Dan 9). During the seven years, Israel will consist of Christ’s 144,000 “servants of God” from the 12 tribes of Israel and of course, hardened Israel. But peoples from all over the earth will come to salvation during that time(Revelation7), which is consistent with how both Jew and Gentile come to Christ now and make up the church.

Imminent? Who says so? You? Your preacher? Some author you have read?
The Bible (which I have carefully read many times and continue to do so) does not tell us that it is imminent, but no one knows that day and hour. The season may be changing, but even so the Word of God very plainly tells that Christ will return when He is not expected.

Few Christians believe that there will be a pre trib rapture, and the Scripture is not clear about it though the Rapture proponents will say that they authoritatively know it all to be true.

The rest of your remarks above display precisely what I mean.

Right before the second coming of Christ to Israel, hardened Israel will turn back to God the way God wants them to turn to Him, by His one and only Son Jesus. It will be like what happened in Egypt, when Joseph revealed who he really was to His brothers. Jesus Christ did say-“For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”(Matt23:39)

The conversion of Israel will indeed happen, but your sequence of events is not conclusively supported by the Word of God.

Catholics will say this verse is said during the liturgy of the Mass. Very well. But hardened Israel will say this at the second coming of Jesus Christ to Israel.

When Israel finally turns to Jesus Christ at His second coming to Israel-
**Psalm118:26
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD.
From the house of the LORD we bless you.

Matthew 23:39
"For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Zechariah 12:10
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.**

Completely irrelevant…

 

[Lev23]

Any chance you could post with more Christian charity?
Now let’s have a look at what you tell us you believe.Imminent? Who says so? You? Your preacher? Some author you have read?
The Bible (which I have carefully read many times and continue to do so) does not tell us that it is imminent, but no one knows that day and hour. The season may be changing, but even so the Word of God very plainly tells that Christ will return when He is not expected.

Few Christians believe that there will be a pre trib rapture, and the Scripture is not clear about it though the Rapture proponents will say that they authoritatively know it all to be true.

The rest of your remarks above display precisely what I mean. The conversion of Israel will indeed happen, but your sequence of events is not conclusively supported by the Word of God.
Completely irrelevant…

With all due respect, there was nothing “uncharitable” in the way I posted. The OP expresses a “I think I get it now” to their understanding of the subject at hand. So what is wrong in asking questions to make sure they really do get it? After all, the OP stated they didn’t understand the perspective from either side. On top of that, the OP is dealing with their parents, so I can only assume they are sincerely looking for answers to help their parents out.

You go on to tell me-“Now let’s have a look at what you tell us you believe.” I never stated anywhere in my post that I wanted everyone to believe what I wrote. Remember, the OP didn’t understand the perspective from either side, and so I gave a different perspective.

Your first two sentences paint me all wrong, then you finish by saying that my point about Israel turning to Christ is “completely irrelevant”. It was relevant in the relation of the seven last years Israel has left to fulfill, as I explained earlier.

The Bible (which I have carefully read many times and continue to do so) does not tell us that it is imminent, but no one knows that day and hour. The season may be changing, but even so the Word of God very plainly tells that Christ will return when He is not expected.

This is from post #2 on this thread-

The Catholic Church has never said anything about when (or how) the End Times might occur. Most Catholics I know are not interested in the subject and have no opinion on it. I’ve never heard it mentioned in a homily.

There has never been a generation that did not have folks who believed the End was somehow near. The Early Church believed the End would occur no later than the death of the last Apostle - it was actually a scandal when it didn’t happen. Even St. Paul seems to have this attitude; writing to the Hebrews (1:2), he says, “God has in these last days spoken to us by His Son…” And folks have been predicting the End ever since.

Like Edgar Whisenant who sold 4.5 million books titled, *“88 Reasons why the Rapture will be in 1988,” *FWIW, that was 23 years ago, but millions of people took that stuff seriously in 1987.

Personally, I think we have thousands of years. God created the human race for a purpose (because everything he does has a purpose). I don’t know what that purpose is, but I find it hard to believe we have fulfilled it, or are about to anytime soon.

I think your mom should get some resumes out.

If Christians today have beliefs that we have thousands of years left, doesn’t that give the idea that they are not expecting the return of Jesus Christ now?

If so, I guess the imminent factor is true, with the exact time only known to God.

 

[Church_Militant]

With all due respect, there was nothing “uncharitable” in the way I posted. The OP expresses a “I think I get it now” to their understanding of the subject at hand. So what is wrong in asking questions to make sure they really do get it? After all, the OP stated they didn’t understand the perspective from either side. On top of that, the OP is dealing with their parents, so I can only assume they are sincerely looking for answers to help their parents out.

It came off as condescending. Consider that posts do not have the benefit of tone of voice or facial expression to gauge intent…

You go on to tell me-“Now let’s have a look at what you tell us you believe.” I never stated anywhere in my post that I wanted everyone to believe what I wrote. Remember, the OP didn’t understand the perspective from either side, and so I gave a different perspective.

The whole point is to equip the OP to deal with the opposing viewpoint.

Your first two sentences paint me all wrong, then you finish by saying that my point about Israel turning to Christ is “completely irrelevant”. It was relevant in the relation of the seven last years Israel has left to fulfill, as I explained earlier.

It’s still irrelevant because it is based upon man’s interpretation of the end time prophecies and are at least as fallible as the average weather prediction…

If Christians today have beliefs that we have thousands of years left, doesn’t that give the idea that they are not expecting the return of Jesus Christ now?

If so, I guess the imminent factor is true, with the exact time only known to God.

The truth is that no one knows whether we have thousands of years remaining or if Christ will return tomorrow, or next week, or next month, or next year etc etc.

So many of the n-Cs proclaim His imminent return as if they know, when in fact they don’t and many times they pick and choose passages to support their teachings instead of simply telling people what we all should. That the Lord can return at any time, and we need to live accordingly.

 

[beegirl]

Can you explain what you get now? Are you sure you get it? And who is “predicting” anything? From reading what you wrote, there doesn’t seem to be any predicting going on from your parents or their pastor. It is tongue-in-cheek humor about the conditions of the world today and the imminence of the pre-tribulation rapture event.

While he (the pastor) wasn’t “predicting” and exact date per say, he claims that he is almost certain that the end of the world as we know it will happen in the next few months. While he is a pretty nice guy, he is also a serious one…as far as I know he doesn’t have a humorous bone in his body so he wasn’t joking when he said it.

And when I say I get it…I mean I feel I know have a rudimentary understanding of the Catholic Church’s view of the end times

I’ll give you a brief explanation of the pre-tribulation rapture, so you understand the issue at hand a little better.

The pre-tribulation rapture is an imminent, future event of Jesus Christ catching up His Church before the appointed remaining last seven years Israel has allotted for her to fulfill(Dan 9). During the seven years, Israel will consist of Christ’s 144,000 “servants of God” from the 12 tribes of Israel and of course, hardened Israel. But peoples from all over the earth will come to salvation during that time(Revelation7), which is consistent with how both Jew and Gentile come to Christ now and make up the church.

Right before the second coming of Christ to Israel, hardened Israel will turn back to God the way God wants them to turn to Him, by His one and only Son Jesus. It will be like what happened in Egypt, when Joseph revealed who he really was to His brothers. Jesus Christ did say-“For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”(Matt23:39) Catholics will say this verse is said during the liturgy of the Mass. Very well. But hardened Israel will say this at the second coming of Jesus Christ to Israel.

When Israel finally turns to Jesus Christ at His second coming to Israel-
Psalm118:26
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD.
From the house of the LORD we bless you.

Matthew 23:39
"For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Zechariah 12:10
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Thanks for the explanation! The verses are helpfu

The OP expresses a “I think I get it now” to their understanding of the subject at hand.

(The OP will again express an “I think I get it now”) I think I get it now
Thank you everyone for the help

 

[panevino]

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; then…”

As soon as a star creates iron, it self destructs. Scientists predict that our Sun will consume the Earth before it self destructs.

A solar eclipse would achieve this

 

[josephback]

Yes, the Catholic Church has no stance because we do not know when it wil happen and not only that I don’t believe that the Church believes in the rapture either.

The popular understanding of the “rapture” or the Second Coming? The Church does not believe in the pop culture pre-tribulation Rapture, but the word is also used as a reference to the Second Coming. I’m pretty sure that the Church believes in that.

 

[ryanoneil]

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken”

In the Old Testament these images were used to describe the downfall of pagan kingdoms and Jesus used this language to describe the impending destruction of Jerusalem during his generation.

 

[PeterK]

BeeGirl,

My limited experience has it that those fascinated with things apocalyptic fixate on them to the exclusion of everything else illuminating in scripture. I’m reading Joseph Blenkinsopp’s* Isaiah 1-39*. In it he notes that one of the least attractive aspects of the apocalyptic world view is the apparent need to condemn everyone who does not share this view. I tend to agree.

Pete

 

[beehumble]

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken”

In the Old Testament these images were used to describe the downfall of pagan kingdoms and Jesus used this language to describe the impending destruction of Jerusalem during his generation.

Typologically, also Jesus could have meant the falling away of Christian leaders, such as bishops and priests, and Christian lay people before He returns.