Enforcing the Redemptionis Sacramentum

[dmorgan]

How do we as lay Catholics enforce Redemptionis Sacramentum?

The document has proposals for contacting your Ordinary and filing complaints, but often these are not addressed. With the new version of the Missal coming soon I wonder how many Parishes will actually get the new vresion in strict compliance when we still do not receive the current version without modifications from Parish to Parish?

In case you have not read the document, do yourself a favor:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Lay Catholics do not “enforce” anything as they do not have any authority. The authority resides in the bishop.

If there are issues you first speak to the priest involved. If it is not resolved to your satisfaction then you contact the office of the bishop. If it still is not resolved then you can contact the nuncio.

Other than that, you can refuse to participate in anything that goes against what the Church has said through the bishops and the documents from the Vatican.

 

[zab]

I agree with ByzCath. I also believe that prayer is important for bringing about change for the better in one’s parish. I have witnessed a total transformation of a parish because of a small core of faithful parishioners devoted to our Blessed Mother and to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. Make visits to the Blessed Sacrament and/or attend Devotions to the Blessed Sacrament if they are offered. Join in praying the rosary before or after Mass or pray it by yourself. Make acts of faith, hope and charity.

 

[boatbearer]

You have received excellent advice about understanding where the authority rests in the Church and to pray for an end to liturgical abuses and irregularities.

If you notice a grave or Graviora delicta abuse then bring it to the attention of your pastor or even you bishop if need be. Such abuses need to stop and they usually are stopped – fast.

Don’t let your spiritual life be consumed with trying to ferret out and take action on what you presume to be “abuses” as doing so can definately take a toll on your spritual life.

 

[John_Lilburne]

An example of the role of a lay person in this enforcement is Richard Stokes in the case of Rev. Peter Kennedy in Brisbane, Australia. An article from the Courier Mail, mainly about the lay man, is at couriermail.com.au/news/sunday-mail/meet-gods-whistleblower/story-e6frep2o-1111119061765 . A transcript from the TV show “7.30 Report” is at abc.net.au/7.30/content/2008/s2465193.htm .

 

[boatbearer]

An example of the role of a lay person in this enforcement is Richard Stokes in the case of Rev. Peter Kennedy in Brisbane, Australia. An article from the Courier Mail, mainly about the lay man, is at couriermail.com.au/news/sunday-mail/meet-gods-whistleblower/story-e6frep2o-1111119061765 . A transcript from the TV show “7.30 Report” is at abc.net.au/7.30/content/2008/s2465193.htm .

A very sad example too:

*He is a very divisive, destructive man," fumes Father John Dobson, Dean of the North Coast.

"He has a closed mind and he has proven that over many years. He engages in this sort of espionage. He’s been doing it all his life.

"Christians don’t do what he does. He fails the Christianity test.*
*
“There is a very small, but strong, group of right-wing Catholics who will go round from church to church searching out things to report to authorities. They attend services in bad faith, at no time intending to participate fully or reverently, but to take notes and pick the service to pieces.”*

May God have mercy on the souls of people like Richard Stokes.

 

[curlycool89]

An example of the role of a lay person in this enforcement is Richard Stokes in the case of Rev. Peter Kennedy in Brisbane, Australia. An article from the Courier Mail, mainly about the lay man, is at couriermail.com.au/news/sunday-mail/meet-gods-whistleblower/story-e6frep2o-1111119061765 . A transcript from the TV show “7.30 Report” is at abc.net.au/7.30/content/2008/s2465193.htm .

Technically, the bishop was the one doing the enforcing. A lay person can certainly talk to the priest, or bishop, or even Rome (I can’t remember, I think that would be CDW) so they can do something about it, but nothing past that.

Lay Catholic essentially do not hold any authority or right to decision making in the Church.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

A very sad example too:

*He is a very divisive, destructive man," fumes Father John Dobson, Dean of the North Coast.

"He has a closed mind and he has proven that over many years. He engages in this sort of espionage. He’s been doing it all his life.

"Christians don’t do what he does. He fails the Christianity test.*
*
“There is a very small, but strong, group of right-wing Catholics who will go round from church to church searching out things to report to authorities. They attend services in bad faith, at no time intending to participate fully or reverently, but to take notes and pick the service to pieces.”*

May God have mercy on the souls of people like Richard Stokes.

Actually May God have mercy on Fr John Dobson.

Richard Stokes is calling for priests to be faithful to the priesthood and the Church, nothing more.

 

[boatbearer]

Actually May God have mercy on Fr John Dobson.

Richard Stokes is calling for priests to be faithful to the priesthood and the Church, nothing more.

“Actually” may God indeed have mercy on the souls of people like Richard Stokes who do little but divide the Catholic Church.

 

[curlycool89]

“Actually” may God indeed have mercy on the souls of people like Richard Stokes who do little but divide the Catholic Church.

There would be no division in the first place if priests preached what is True instead of their own watered-down touchy-feely version of it. The Bishop did the right thing.

Like, take a look at this:

But what raised his ire most of all was the replacement in baptisms of the words “I baptise you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” with “We baptise you in the name of the creator, sustainer and liberator of life”.

The Church says any baptisms performed that way are invalid, and it is one of the main reasons the Archbishop finally ousted Fr Kennedy.

This wasn’t just some garden variety ad-libbing, he was invalidly baptizing people. That is deliberately leading people astray from the faith. I know a priest who was asked to perform an illicit baptism (right words, but the form was not correct I believe), and he just started taking off the vestments and told them he wouldn’t do it (he’s a cannon lawyer after all).

Just so I’m clear here, I wouldn’t say that people should be going around checking on parishes and priests. If people do see something wrong then they can report it, but I don’t think having a self appointed group to watch priests is good. I think that would be reserved to the Bishop or (if real necessary) to the Vatican to do an apostolic visitation.

 

[boatbearer]

There would be no division in the first place if priests preached what is True instead of their own watered-down touchy-feely version of it…

And you’re the arbiter of what is “True”? You aren’t – nor is Richard Stokes.

That priest had been in place for 28 years. It was time for him to either go to his next assignment or retire.

 

[Phemie]

That priest had been in place for 28 years. It was time for him to either go to his next assignment or retire.

Oh yeah, send him to some other poor parish to invalidly baptize and teach lies.

On another note: While rarely seen any more, that kind of extended ministry in one place was common when I was growing up. The priest who celebrated my parents’ wedding and then my brothers’ and my baptism was in our parish for 35 years. My dad had been his altar server for 27 of those when he got married. The priests in the neighbouring towns were there just as long.

 

[DeepeningFaith]

An example of the role of a lay person in this enforcement is Richard Stokes in the case of Rev. Peter Kennedy in Brisbane, Australia. An article from the Courier Mail, mainly about the lay man, is at couriermail.com.au/news/sunday-mail/meet-gods-whistleblower/story-e6frep2o-1111119061765 . A transcript from the TV show “7.30 Report” is at abc.net.au/7.30/content/2008/s2465193.htm .

Based off of what I read, what occured at St. Mary’s: I would have done the EXACT same thing as Mr. Stokes in this case. Do I think that people should go to different parishes with the intention of finding things wrong? Absolutely not, this takes away from true worship from this person (not participation) during Mass. If however, you are at another parish for some reason, such as a conflict in your Sunday schedule, or there is a retreat, and you notice something is wrong, you have a duty to report it. By knowing it is wrong and not doing anything, you are guilty of allowing scandal to happen, and that is a sin! Also, I think that Bishops need to do a better job of encouraging the faithful to report liturgical abuses. I reported a priest who changed the presidential prayers during Mass to the Liturgy Office for the Diocese. He was immediately reprimanded. Did I search him out? No. But I was there for a retreat and I knew it was wrong.

I’d like to give a quote:

"The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church, which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful. The use of unauthorized texts means a loss of the necessary connection between the lex orandi and the lex credendi. The Second Vatican Council’s admonition in this regard must be remembered:** “No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority.”** [Sacrosanctum Concilium] And Paul VI of venerable memory stated that: “Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiments is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense.”[Paul VI, address of August 22, 1973: “L’Osservatore Romano,” August 23, 1973.] (Quote taken from Inaestimabile Donum)

 

[benedictgal]

The faithful have every right to recourse if they have a legitimate concern regarding liturgical and sacramental matters. According to Redemptionis Sacarmantum:

it is the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms. Likewise, the Catholic people have the right that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass should be celebrated for them in an integral manner, according to the entire doctrine of the Church’s Magisterium. Finally, it is the Catholic community’s right that the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist should be carried out for it in such a manner that it truly stands out as a sacrament of unity, to the exclusion of all blemishes and actions that might engender divisions and factions in the Church.32

They should charitably point out whatever deficiency/abuse exists to the pastor. If the pastor refuses to take corrective action, then, the next course of action is to go to the bishop. One should include copies of correspondence between themselves and the priest. If the bishop does not take any action, then, the matter should be remanded to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Disciplnie of the Sacaraments (CDWDS). Copies of all correspondence exchanged between the person and the pastor and the bishop should be included.

In the case of my father, the bishop never responded and so he submitted copies of the letters he sent to the priest and the ordinary (including the certified return receipt requested form which the diocese never returned) to the CDWDS. Roughly three weeks after the correspondence was sent, the CDWDS sent him to acknowledgments: the first one was the orange certified return receipt requested form (signed) and then a letter from the prefect at the time, Francis Cardinal Arinze. Even though it took some time and several phone calls, the issue was resolved.

 

[JerrySeibert]

If my comment gets my access restricted to this site then I assume it is God’s will.

As a lay Catholic how about you bask in the creation of the God who created the universe and not make a post about every petty act an ordained Priest/Deacon/Sister/Brother may do to, or not to your satisfaction.
If I read another post that says ‘abuse’ ‘schism’ ‘enforce’… am I old fashioned at 38 years old that I am just proud of my faith. And I enjoy teaching it and would proudly defend it unto death. The Protestants, Baptists, Muslims and Judaic’s must read posts like this and laugh. Proud Catholics who cannot agree on their own faith.
So sad. It this what Jesus would have wanted? Someone to know a little Latin to pick a fight??
I will pray for you that you will find the peace that God can give you.

 

[DeepeningFaith]

The Protestants, Baptists, Muslims and Judaic’s must read posts like this and laugh. Proud Catholics who cannot agree on their own faith.

It wouldn’t surprise me, but then I’m sure they will remember that they argue over doctine, while we simply talk about the best way to worship and argue (I’ll call it what it is) about obedience. Remember, that there are about 5 new Protestant denominations started every year!

 

[MarkThompson]

If my comment gets my access restricted to this site then I assume it is God’s will.

As a lay Catholic how about you bask in the creation of the God who created the universe and not make a post about every petty act an ordained Priest/Deacon/Sister/Brother may do to, or not to your satisfaction.
If I read another post that says ‘abuse’ ‘schism’ ‘enforce’… am I old fashioned at 38 years old that I am just proud of my faith. And I enjoy teaching it and would proudly defend it unto death. The Protestants, Baptists, Muslims and Judaic’s must read posts like this and laugh. Proud Catholics who cannot agree on their own faith.
So sad. It this what Jesus would have wanted? Someone to know a little Latin to pick a fight??
I will pray for you that you will find the peace that God can give you.

Meh, this is just another example of “How can you think about X when there are people dying in Darfur?” syndrome.

 

[Phemie]

If my comment gets my access restricted to this site then I assume it is God’s will.

As a lay Catholic how about you bask in the creation of the God who created the universe and not make a post about every petty act an ordained Priest/Deacon/Sister/Brother may do to, or not to your satisfaction.
If I read another post that says ‘abuse’ ‘schism’ ‘enforce’… am I old fashioned at 38 years old that I am just proud of my faith. And I enjoy teaching it and would proudly defend it unto death. The Protestants, Baptists, Muslims and Judaic’s must read posts like this and laugh. Proud Catholics who cannot agree on their own faith.
So sad. It this what Jesus would have wanted? Someone to know a little Latin to pick a fight??
I will pray for you that you will find the peace that God can give you.

Where do you draw the line? The priest in question was performing invalid baptisms. You’re OK with that? Seeing that occur, you would keep your mouth shut because Fr. knows best?

The Vatican has given us a document that specifically calls certain things abuses and tells us to report them if we see them because we, as Catholics, have a RIGHT to proper liturgy free of abuse. If that’s not important to you, feel free to close your eyes and pretend it’s not happening. Unfortunately, ignoring abuses simply allows them to be continue and multiply.

 

[boatbearer]

Where do you draw the line?

The Vatican has given us a document that specifically calls certain things abuses and tells us to report them if we see them because we, as Catholics, have a RIGHT to proper liturgy free of abuse. If that’s not important to you, feel free to close your eyes and pretend it’s not happening. Unfortunately, ignoring abuses simply allows them to be continue and multiply.

Hold on just one moment. There are actual liturgical abuses and there are irregularities that are in no way “abuses” and that distinction needs to be made.

If I was to witness graviora delicta or another grave matter during the Mass or at any time concerning the sacraments I would take action. As you point out we are directed to do that. But most things labeled as “abuses” here are neither graviora delicta nor another grave matter. A great many are not abuses at all yet time and time again we hear people carping about them. That carping is extremely virulent and divisive. Carping that does REAL harm to parishes

Are you on fire because your bishop used an antique Waterford Crystal chalice (once owned by his great-great uncle) at the special confirmation Mass? Do you want to take on your pastor or bishop about blessings during communion? Not only will you lose in both instances they’ll be consequences to some level for everyone involved. You want to get upset about the infamous hand-holding, talking before Mass, use of the orans, CIH, licit use of EMsHC, tabernacles not in the rear center of the sanctuary, female servers, etc. etc? Lotta luck with that. Again, not only will you lose, you’ll do damage.

Yes I know! By golly you have read the GIRM, RS and a handful of other documents and you feel you KNOW EXACTLY what the Church directs and now you’re going after whomever you can! When you’re rebuffed you’ll get even angrier and the consequences will multiply – in number and severity.

Being obsessed about matters like these is indicative of a problem. A problem with the obsessed person and not with those causing the perceived “problems.” I know though – you have your printouts and nothing is going to stop you…

 

[japhy]

Anyone who is defending the conduct of the pastor of St. Mary’s in Brisbane must be completely unaware with his history and ongoing behavior. The “Mass” that he celebrates is replete with aberrations. You can see their exploits at their web site. They regularly replace the readings from Scripture with other things (like poems, anecdotes, etc.). The homily (more often than not, given by a layman) is full of heresy. (These people do not believe in the Resurrection! They preach things like “The Godman/woman, the Christ, in all the stories is not someone out there, the Godman/woman, is to be us.”) There is a fundamental and deep misunderstanding of Catholic theology there. Their liturgical abuses are not wisely defended.