English AND Latin?

[BackRowBaritone]

It’s time for my first post … Lord, have mercy.

I’ve been reading a lot of material, here and elsewhere, about the relative merits of the Tridentine Mass versus the Novus Ordo Missae, and between Mass in Latin vs. Mass in English - some quite scholarly, some purely polemic. It occured to me that this was yet another case in which Blessed John Henry Newman could be of help. In his Apologia Pro Vita Sua (if I remember correctly), Newman introduces the idea of “the Catholic AND.” During his examination of Catholicism, he discovered that Protestant thought is often expressed in terms of “either/or” - either Faith OR Works, either Scripture OR Tradition. On the other hand, Catholic thought is expressed in terms of “both/and” - Faith AND Works, Scripture AND Tradition. I’m wondering if the same “Catholic AND” could be applied to this controversy as
well.

Here’s my trial balloon: Both Latin AND the vernacular are NECESSARY for a fuller understanding of the dual nature of our Lord. Latin emphasizes the majesty of His divinity, English emphasizes the humility of His humanity. Ideally (…I know, I know…), Latin Mass could be offered on Feast days and Solemnities as well as Advent/Christmas and Lent/Easter; during Ordinary Time, Mass would be exclusively in English. Perhaps Latin Mass could be the first offering on Sunday morning, because those folks who as enthused about Latin would be the most willing to get to early Mass on time.

Several sensible people have noted that this would require a substantial amount of catechesis, something which is sorely deficient in the Church in the United States. Also, so few priests are able to celebrate Mass in Latin (willingness is another matter) that this is an admittedly theoretical exercise. My pastor celebrated Mass in Latin on All Souls Day and, as “traditional” as he is, his Latin pronunciation needed more practice. Even so, he did a good job as he always does, and I hope he will offer Mass in Latin more often.

On the issue of TLM or NO: when our Holy Father celebrates Mass, which one does he use? Pope John Paul II is a man of the Council, and he uses the Mass of Paul VI. Sorry … I agree that the Tridentine Mass is glorious, but if the Novus Ordo is good enough for John Paul the Great, it’s good enough for me. I understand Patrick Madrid has a new book out on our schismatic betheren called “Holier than the Pope” - it may be worth seeking out. Even Fr. Peter Stravinskas, an advocate for Mass in Latin, has stated that the Tridentine Mass was in serious need of revision, and he has never celebrated the old Mass.

O.K., friends, you can start shooting now …

 

[Agomemnon]

well you’d at least be in accord with Vatican II.

Vatican II says we are to have Latin, Gregorian Chant, Polyphany for music and vernacular where it’s appropriate.

I’m still waiting for a Vatican II mass

 

[CreosMary]

Dear Friend,
The diversity in the Church is rich. Our monthly Masses in our Chapel are the Norvus ordo but our Chaplain sings it in Latin, facing east; it is truly beautiful and everyone can relate and understand.
The Holy Father has often urged more latin to be used in the Mass and in other liturgies. I find the Rosary in latin most beautiful, it flows and has a special rythym. Try it and see
God bless and Mary protect you always

 

[IrishBrigade]

O.K., friends, you can start shooting now …

…no need for that, your post doesn’t require an execution…time enough for that later, as you post more often and offend more sensibilities…our parish priest, much as I love him, annoyed me when I brought up the point of the TLM, making a face and complaining that it doesn’t provide for congregational involvment…in my mind, that’s a good thing, when one observes what many of the parishioners actually do during Mass, what with assuming the orans posture and that awful bit about hand holding during the paternoster…luckily for me, a local parish began celebrating the TLM, and I, a convert in 2005, never having seen one before, became enthralled by it…I don’t notice the lack of involvement at all, for I am more involved than ever in chanting the Gloria, and the Credo, the Sanctus,and the Agnus Dei with the choir, and reciting the paternoster…at any rate, many people have questioned me about the TLM, which tells me they have an interest in at least being afforded the opportunity to do so…

 

[consumedconvert]

It’s time for my first post … Lord, have mercy.

I’ve been reading a lot of material, here and elsewhere, about the relative merits of the Tridentine Mass versus the Novus Ordo Missae, and between Mass in Latin vs. Mass in English - some quite scholarly, some purely polemic. It occured to me that this was yet another case in which Blessed John Henry Newman could be of help. In his Apologia Pro Vita Sua (if I remember correctly), Newman introduces the idea of “the Catholic AND.” During his examination of Catholicism, he discovered that Protestant thought is often expressed in terms of “either/or” - either Faith OR Works, either Scripture OR Tradition. On the other hand, Catholic thought is expressed in terms of “both/and” - Faith AND Works, Scripture AND Tradition. I’m wondering if the same “Catholic AND” could be applied to this controversy as
well.

Here’s my trial balloon: Both Latin AND the vernacular are NECESSARY for a fuller understanding of the dual nature of our Lord. Latin emphasizes the majesty of His divinity, English emphasizes the humility of His humanity. Ideally (…I know, I know…), Latin Mass could be offered on Feast days and Solemnities as well as Advent/Christmas and Lent/Easter; during Ordinary Time, Mass would be exclusively in English. Perhaps Latin Mass could be the first offering on Sunday morning, because those folks who as enthused about Latin would be the most willing to get to early Mass on time.

Several sensible people have noted that this would require a substantial amount of catechesis, something which is sorely deficient in the Church in the United States. Also, so few priests are able to celebrate Mass in Latin (willingness is another matter) that this is an admittedly theoretical exercise. My pastor celebrated Mass in Latin on All Souls Day and, as “traditional” as he is, his Latin pronunciation needed more practice. Even so, he did a good job as he always does, and I hope he will offer Mass in Latin more often.

On the issue of TLM or NO: when our Holy Father celebrates Mass, which one does he use? Pope John Paul II is a man of the Council, and he uses the Mass of Paul VI. Sorry … I agree that the Tridentine Mass is glorious, but if the Novus Ordo is good enough for John Paul the Great, it’s good enough for me. I understand Patrick Madrid has a new book out on our schismatic betheren called “Holier than the Pope” - it may be worth seeking out. Even Fr. Peter Stravinskas, an advocate for Mass in Latin, has stated that the Tridentine Mass was in serious need of revision, and he has never celebrated the old Mass.

O.K., friends, you can start shooting now …

I don’t know that I’d say it’s essential. (In fact, I wouldn’t.) But I think it would be a boon to many, if only because they get to see the Mystery of the Mass in a new beautiful way.

I’m helping with RCIA this year. We’re in pre-planning right now. One idea that has much support is taking the Catechumens and Candidates on a field trip to the nearest EF of the Mass (once they have what goes on at the OF down). I think it would be a highly educational experience! We’d also like to get an Eastern Catholic priest down to speak to us about the EC Churches, and maybe, just maybe we can make it to a Divine Liturgy!

All that being said, where was I…Oh yes.

That was your first thread? Ah, you’ll do fine here.