English Catholicism as a separate Western Rite?

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HomeschoolDad

HomeschoolDad

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Is it possible that English culture (or even the larger British culture taken as a whole) is so distinct from that of continental Europe that an Anglican Rite, in union with the Holy Father, could ever exist as a separate sui juris Church, akin to the various Eastern Rites?

I realize that there is now an “Anglican Use” within the Roman or Latin Church, but it does not go so far as to be a separate rite, with its own canon law, its own hierarchy, and so on. A personal ordinariate is not the same thing as a diocese.

I am well aware of the distinction between England and Britain — all Englishmen are Britons, but not all Britons are English. I think of England/Britain as being kind of “quasi-European”, something set apart, with its own unique language, patrimony, history, and mentality. Ireland is the same way, but I would never lump it in with Britain. Whether the Irish view themselves as Europeans is something I will leave the Irish to define.

Full disclosure: I am an American of both English and Scotch-Irish blood. So I have a little “skin in the game”, so to speak.
 
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HopkinsReb said:
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steph03:
you mean something like Personal Ordinariate of tbe Chair of Saint-Peter?
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OP said:
HomeschoolDad said:
A personal ordinariate is not the same thing as a diocese.
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So no, not like the Ordinariates.
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Actually, the OP is incorrect.

A personal ordinariate is EXACTLY like a diocese, the only difference being that it’s personal, rather than territorial. Otherwise, its function, jurisdiction, and powers are just like that of a conventional, territorial diocese.

And the OP’s confusing “rite” and “church” doesn’t clarify things either. What the OP as asking is if the former Anglicans can eventually form their own church.

Of course in theory, they can, but English history has always had the English, Scottish, and Irish churches as part of the wider Latin church, even if they had unique rites. So in practice, they will not likely become a church sui iuris, but what might happen sooner is the current practice, Divine Worship, which is a Use of the Roman Rite could spin off to become a rite of their own distinct from the Roman Rite, like the Sarum before it, while still remaining under the fold of the Latin church and its canon law.
 
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steph03 said:
you mean something like Personal Ordinariate of tbe Chair of Saint-Peter?
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Not quite. I am well aware of this ordinariate and what it constitutes. I was speculating that the English nation is so sui generis, and has been throughout history, that it can be thought of as a separate, distinctive expression of Western Catholic Christianity, something apart from the Roman Rite while retaining union with the Holy Father, as the Eastern Rites do.

It is a hard thing to describe. It just seems to me that England, or even the entire island of Great Britain, is “not quite Europe”. I mean this in no offensive way — I revere and celebrate both the culture and patrimony of Britain and of continental Europe. It’s just different. Again, hard to describe. (Yes, the same can be said of various countries on the continent — Germany is not Spain is not Bulgaria is not Estonia, and so on.)

I would put it in the same category as saying “Turkey is not Europe” (even though there is a Massachusetts-sized chunk of Turkey on the European continent, and many Turks think of themselves as European).
 
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HomeschoolDad said:
I was speculating that the English nation is so sui generis , and has been throughout history, that it can be thought of as a separate, distinctive expression of Western Catholic Christianity, something apart from the Roman Rite while retaining union with the Holy Father, as the Eastern Rites do.
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It’s not that different unless you want to bring back the Sarum Rite, which was tossed centuries ago.

I’m also not sure how you think the English nation is so much more different or special than any other Western European country. The English spent a good bit of time importing Roman stuff into their early Catholic church. There are English saints who are commemorated who were responsible for much of this.
 
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I don’t see the need and also England (and the rest of the U.K.) has changed a great deal from say the Victorian era. It is a very diverse society, much more so than many other parts of Europe. The “distinctness” of the English church is I would say, more Anglican than Catholic. Catholics were suppressed for so many centuries, having many civil rights removed that it was very difficult for the church in England to have a distinct “Englishness”. As the English church was not allowed a hierarchy or seminaries, the priests and religious were often immigrants from Ireland and other parts of Europe.

So, as I mentioned the church that has a distinct “Englishness” is more the Anglican Church. In modern England Catholic parishes are very diverse and often have a high percentage of immigrants from Ireland, Poland, African nations and everywhere else in the world, it is a great example of the universality of the church. It would seem bizarre to try and impose an “Englishness” that was radically stamped out and not allowed to flourish for centuries. Then to adopt the flavor of the Anglican Church which has often been radically anti-Catholic would make no sense.

There is a tendency I find with Catholics outside the U.K. who have a romantic view of England and are understandably attached to such greats as Newman, Tolkien, and others to have very little understanding of the church on the ground. For example, because Catholics could not attend university or hold property without great fines for large periods of history, the English church consisted mostly of two groups. 1) a small number of aristocratic families who had been rich enough to pay the fines and hold onto their lands and 2) working-class Catholics who were the descendants of immigrants from Ireland, Portugal, Italy etc. Any indigenous working or middle class Catholicism had been wiped out and was not allowed to be replaced. You will note that famous English Catholics in the past two hundred years are often descendants of immigrants (Tolkien and Belloc) or converts from the English middle and upper classes (Newman, Chesterton).

The Anglican converts in the Victoria era often commented on the lack of Catholic intellectuals and writers. Of course this was a result of British government and church policy for many hundreds of years that had prevented the growth of the Catholic church within England. Before the English reformation of course all Christians in England were Catholic but now all that history, especially the built history of cathedrals and churches is within the Anglican patrimony.
 
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joyfulandactive said:
There is a tendency I find with Catholics outside the U.K. who have a romantic view of England and are understandably attached to such greats as Newman, Tolkien, and others to have very little understanding of the church on the ground
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I guarantee you that no Irish-American Catholics whose forbears were basically hounded or forced out of England has such romantic ideas about the Catholic Church in UK. My personal feeling is that it’s a minor miracle that such a church still exists there, no doubt sustained by immigrants from Ireland, Poland, Italy etc.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
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The Roman rite has just one sui iuris Catholic church for one tradition, whereas the eastern have many traditions.

CCEO
Canon 28 -
§1. A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui iuris.
§2. The rites treated in this code, unless otherwise stated, are those which arise from the Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian, Chaldean and Constantinopolitan traditions.
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Tis_Bearself said:
I’m also not sure how you think the English nation is so much more different or special than any other Western European country. The English spent a good bit of time importing Roman stuff into their early Catholic church. There are English saints who are commemorated who were responsible for much of this.
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Points well taken. Again, it is a hard thing to describe. I would say “well, that 21 miles of water…”, but Norway and Sweden are even more isolated from mainland Europe than that. So is Ireland.

I consider myself a European American, I value European culture, and quite frankly, I would like to see the United States be more European in its culture and lifestyle. But I recognize that there are other, non-European cultures in this country, equally deserving of respect and honor, and that we must embrace the rich diversity that makes this country so fascinating. Let’s face it, a totally European America would be a little bland. And keep in mind the native Americans were here first.
 
Exactly ‘Tis Bearself all Catholics were treated in this way, English Catholics as well as Irish Catholics. It was illegal to attend a Catholic Mass in England for decades if not centuries. At certain points in history a Catholic priest found in England would be arrested for treason and many were executed. The Catholic Church was radically and violently suppressed and therefore English Catholics don’t wish to take on an “English Catholicism” that has an Anglican flavor.
 
HopkinsReb said:
and quite frankly, I would like to see the United States be more European in its culture and lifestyle.
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Eh?

Well, we all like different things. I have been to Europe many times, I married a European, and my son is European. I think a lot can be said for universal health care, free higher education, a more relaxed pace of life, less emphasis upon accumulating material things, job security, generous paid vacation, multilingualism, appreciation of high culture, and so on. But then again I appreciate such things as wide open spaces, a food culture with African, Asian, and Mesoamerican influences, the Second Amendment, a rich musical tradition (jazz, blues, etc.), you name it.

My heaven on earth would be “both/and”, not “either/or”. And, yes, thoroughly Catholic.
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I’ve been to Europe many times, I’m on the solicitors’ roll of England and Wales, I work for a European company (an “SE”), my ancestry is half second-generation immigrant from Ireland (via England and Canada) and the rest are earlier immigrants from Scotland and Germany. Europe is Europe, USA is USA, it’s two different things, and the US has the superior legal system IMHO and a government structure I much prefer. 'MURRICA.

Really not into it when anyone including Justice Breyer starts acting like we should be more like Europe. No. Just no.
 
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