English chanted mass parts

[VAC]

I’m leading a choir for over 2 years. Sometimes folks make suggestions, some useable, some not. This isn’t an overly opionated group although they will let me know what their favorites are. Not all our brainstorms are winners, but we get good ideas and feedback from each other.

On Sunday, we started practicing music for Advent. We reviewed the Latin chant mass parts, which everyone remembered very well from Lent…
After we were done I pulled out and sang for them mass parts with the same melody as the Latin chants, but with Engllish words. I thought of using these for ordinary time after the Christmas season. They all looked at me as though I had 3 heads and was absolutely out of my mind; a reaction I have never experienced from so many of them at once. OK, so not all my brainstorms are winners. I was getting the strangest looks I’ve ever seen from all the adults (3 of whom whose first languages are not English) They all told me that these chants should only be sung in Latin. Only one of the choir members could be described as Orthodox. Of course I could have pushed it, but If that was the choirs reaction, I could imagine what the crowd’s would be. So I’m not going through with it.

Just curious if anyone out there has ever heard chanted mass parts done in English.???

 

[Sarabande]

I think it’s one of those things where sometimes the original language always sounds better than the translation. We did the Adoro Te Devote yesterday for Communion, although it was done in English. The English translation is fine, but it loses the essence of the meaning in the Latin. We once had to sing a Mozart mass where the Latin was translated to English - absolutely HORRIFIC! Everyone in the parish choir, even the director, thought it just sounded horrible. Some things just sound better in the original language and lends itself more to prayer because of the beauty of the fluidity in the words and the true meaning of the language.

It’s like singing a hymn originally written in German, Spanish, French, etc. and having it translated in English. It just doesn’t fit totally right and is sometimes a little corny. I believe it would also be the same if you try to translate English text to another language. It will lose some meaning and poetic beauty. This just doesn’t apply to sacred/religious music. It is the same for secular. The English translations to lieder, chansons, opera arias, almost always loses the poetic beauty and real meaning. English is one of the worst languages to sing in anyway.

That said, you could try it out and see what happens. Have you spoken with the pastor about it?

 

[VociMike]

Trying to chant English texts using the same melodies as the Latin chants is doomed to failure (or at least mediocrity). The reason is that English works differently than Latin. The melodic accents will be on the wrong parts of the English words or on the wrong words entirely (e.g. you’ll sometimes get strong accents on “the” and “a”). I’m sure you had to notice this with the examples you tried.

Still, you might want to look at the English Gradual, which has the Propers (not sure if it has 100%) set to chant notation.

anglicanhistory.org/music/gradual/gradual.pdf

This doesn’t contain the Ordinary parts, but really it’s more useful to present the Propers in English than the Ordinary anyway. I know that a book called “An English Kyriale” exists which would presumably have the Ordinary chants in English, but I’ve never seen that book.

 

[VAC]

No, I’m not going to try it, I’ve never gotten such a strong reaction from so many of my group… (VAC makes chicken noises )
As for asking for permission, I didn’t feel the need to ask since I’m using the same ‘approved’ melody of the Latin chants, and the same ‘approved’ words as we sing in English.It was just an idea I had to incorporate chant into the mass parts (from the Holy Holy to the Lamb of God ) I wanted to give that part of the mass a different ‘tone’ all unaccompanied simple chant. I wasn’t sure the idea would fly anyway.

I found these arrangements in the Adoremus hymnal, which came with CD’s, that I didn’t think sounded too bad.

Thanks for the link, Mike. I’ve seen explanations online of how to read Gregorian Chant… I’m much to unfocused these days to pick it up. I’d need to have a tutor or sign up for remedial chant reading 101. I do read standard notation, but as a guitarist, I’ve never mastered bass clef.

Good hearing from you guys again

 

[Sarabande]

It doesn’t really compare, but have you ever tried out “New Plainsong” mass by David Hurd? It is in English and can sound very nice. I prefer it to some of the newer mass parts that are out there. We do it here sometimes and the congregation does sing it well.

 

[benedictgal]

I think that the Sanctuuus in English wouldn’t sound too good. Why not stick to the Latin for these parts? I think Sarabande makes a lot of sense. For example, Viva, Viva Jesus, Mi Amor (a Spanish Christmas carol) would sound strange in English. Some things just don’t translate well.

Of course, O Come, O Come Emmanuel does sound beautiful in Latin, English or Spanish, as does the Attende Domine (although I am leery of the recent re-translations that have cropped up). For the Pangia Lingua we did the first verse in Latin, the second verse in English and the third in Spanish and then started up again. Luckily, our cantor was able to sing in all three languages and she did a materful job leading us. The organist could also sing in these three languages, so having him as a backup helped.

The Adoremus hymnal is a good backup. The Vatican website does have some mp3 recordings of the Sistene Chapel choir that sound really nice. These might help you, although, they do sing some of the Latin parts translated into Italian. Of course, Latin and Italian sound similar so there might not be that big of a problem.

 

[VociMike]

Thanks for the link, Mike. I’ve seen explanations online of how to read Gregorian Chant… I’m much to unfocused these days to pick it up. I’d need to have a tutor or sign up for remedial chant reading 101. I do read standard notation, but as a guitarist, I’ve never mastered bass clef.

I bet you could pick it up in a half-hour on your own. It’s really simple. There are just different idioms for when the melody goes up and when it goes down, and a few regarding lengthening the “note(s),” which make it seem more complicated than it is.

 

[baltobetsy]

It doesn’t really compare, but have you ever tried out “New Plainsong” mass by David Hurd? It is in English and can sound very nice. I prefer it to some of the newer mass parts that are out there. We do it here sometimes and the congregation does sing it well.

You took the words right out of my mouth - er - off my keyboard!

Betsy