A
anon77300002
Guest
I became a Roman Catholic at a Latin Church a number of years ago. Before Vatican II what parts of the Mass were already in the vernacular? Any hymns? (Readings?)
- Status
C
Chatter163
Guest
Nothing was in the vernacular before Vatican II. Sometimes the readings were repeated in the vernacular before the sermon, but this was optional and not part of the Mass per se. Hymns could be sung before and after Mass, but not during.
F
Frosty
Guest
This is inaccurate. As a teenager from 1960 until 1965, I played the organ for the Sunday 9 am Mass. We used what is now rather derisively referred to as “the four hymn sandwich” during the Mass. A hymn at the beginning of Mass, one at the Offertory, one during the reception of Communion by the faithful and one at the end of Mass. These hymns were all sung in English. The hymns were chosen by either the nun who was the choir director and regular organist or by whichever curate was acting as the cantor for that Mass. The hymns rarely varied during those years with the same half dozen being the normal ones sung at my parish. Holy God We Praise Thy Name, Faith of Our Fathers, The Prayer of St, Framcis. Now Thank We all Our God,** Lord, I Am Not Worthy **and Praise To The Lord. During May, hymns to the blessed Mother were substituted for either the opening or closing hymn and during the Christmas season the same was done using Christmas Carols.
B
brotherhrolf
Guest
Oh, there were a bit more than that. **Come Holy Ghost. Jesus, My Lord, My God, My All. Humbly We Adore Thee. Sing My Tongue the Savior’s Glory. To Jesus Christ Our Sovreign King - **to name a few more I can remember.
But, you are absolutely correct. We would go weeks singing the same hymns every Sunday for, it seemed like, months at a time. I was in grade school and an altar boy from 60 - 65 and in my parish, the Epistle and Gospel were always repeated in English before the sermon.
Most of the hymns which have been cited are still sung at my cathedral parish with a lot more congregational participation than say On Eagle’s Wings.
V
Vanquisher
Guest
I was born after Vatican II, but now attend exclusively the traditional Latin Mass; I have never been to a Sunday Latin Mass where the readings were not repeated in English before the sermon, though I have been to daily low Masses where these were not repeated or only the Gospel, not the Epistle, was read in English. Of course the sermon is always in the vernacular, but you are correct that this is not actually part of the liturgy of the Mass.
Vernacular hymns may be sung during a low Mass, but not during a High Mass. At most traditionalist parishes or chapels nowadays, the Sunday Mass is usually a high Mass; vernacular hymns are sung at the beginning and end of Mass, while the music during the Mass itself is Gregorian chant and Latin motets during the Offertory and Communion.
People I’ve talked with who grew up before Vatican II have said that low Masses were the norm, even on Sunday, and high Masses were rare. (I think this is due in large part to the influence of Irish Catholicism on American Catholicism–the book Why Catholics Can’t Sing goes into detail about this). On a sidenote, what we normally call a “High Mass” is technically a “Missa Cantata”–a sung low Mass. A real High Mass–which is called a solemn high Mass must include a deacon and a sub-deacon.
B
brotherhrolf
Guest
I’m Irish Catholic and old enough to have served as an altar boy before Vatican II. You are correct. Sunday’s High Mass throughout most of the year was a Missa Cantata. Solemn High Masses in my parish were reserved for major feast days - Christmas, Easter, Pentecost Sunday. The 6 (yes, 6), 8, 12 and 5 pm Masses were always Low Mass. The Mass at 10 was a sung “High Mass”.
As amazing as it seems today, we did have three priests in residence in my parish when I was growing up and we did have Solemn High Masses.
C
CradleCath
Guest
Same here. I attended the Cathedral parish during my early years & 10:00AM was the Solemn High Mass. There were no vigil Masses or 5PM’s. Sunday morning was God’s time.
Our parish also had, at least, 3 priests. Before our diocese was consolidated, we had the Bishop, a Monsignor & 2 Curates. After a couple of years the Curates usually moved on to pastor a parish of their own. I remember my Father telling me we always had a couple of young priests whose mission was to keep the Bishop from giving away everything he/the Church owned. I guess, the Bishop’s “mansion” (a two story brick house) became a favorite spot for the poor during the depression. They could always count on a hot meal & a few dollars from the Bishop
A
Aramis
Guest
Per the rubrics, the readings could be read in the vernacular, in Latin, or both.
In eastern Europe, specifically Dalmatia and Croatia, the Latin Mass was allowed to be said in Church Slavonic, since before Trent (and after). Catholic Encyclopedia: Slavonic Language and Liturgy.
In eastern Europe, specifically Dalmatia and Croatia, the Latin Mass was allowed to be said in Church Slavonic, since before Trent (and after). Catholic Encyclopedia: Slavonic Language and Liturgy.
A
AJV
Guest
Hymns could be sung during the Mass at a low Mass. Vernacular singing during High (or even Sung) Masses was generally discouraged except for particular longstanding customs like the German Deutsche Hochamt
C
Chatter163
Guest
That is true–I had thought the the OP mentioned High Mass, but it did not. I know that Low Mass with hymns was permitted, but even then, the hymns were not considered part of the Mass, but as being sung “over” the Mass.
- Status