English in a "traditional" Mass

[narrowpath]

Getting a bit off topic, but I would be VERY interested in seeing the developement of an Anglican rite in the Church as more and more convert.

Liturgy based on the book of Common prayer and in English are already happening.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

I would sure like to know how that fact got lost somewhere. The Vatican II documents are very blunt about it. The GIRM misquotes sacrosanctum concilium. I just don’t get how all of this happened.

Famule:

I’ll have to reread the GIRM. Meanwhile, I’ll trust my friend , Fr. Fessio:

The Mass of Vatican II, by Fr. Joseph Fessio, S.J.
You can see it, perhaps, by contrasting Mass facing the people with Mass facing East or facing the Lord. I don’t say Mass “with my back to the people” anymore than Patton went through Germany with his “back to the soldiers.” Patton led the Third Army across Germany and they followed him to achieve a goal. The Mass is part of the Pilgrim Church on the way to our goal, our heavenly homeland. This world is not our heavenly homeland. We don’t sit around in a circle and look at each other. We want to look *with *each other and with the priest towards the rising sun, the rays of grace, where the Son will come again in glory on the clouds.

     And so, in Mass celebrated in the traditional way, the priest does face          the people when he speaks on God's behalf to proclaim the Word and explain          it. And he does face the people when he receives their gifts. And then          he turns to face with the people and to offer those gifts up to our common          Father, praying that the Holy Spirit will come down and transform those          gifts into the Body and Blood of Christ. And when that most sacred act          takes place, the priest turns to offer the gifts back to the people. I          think that is much more dramatic. Whether I am right or not, all I'm asking          is a right to exist. If not peaceful coexistence, at least coexistence.          
     
     Now strange as it may appear, there is absolutely no permission required          to say Mass facing East. The Pope does it every morning in his chapel.          But there is such a taboo against it that most pastors would be afraid          to do it for fear they would be exiled to some lowly parish.

ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/fessio_massv2_1_jan05.asp

The Mass of Vatican II, Page 2
We have now two extremes and a moderate position. One extreme position is the kind of informal Mass, all in English, facing the people, with contemporary music, which does not at all correspond with what the Council had in mind. But it is legitimate, it is permitted; it is not wrong. And we have on the other extreme those who have returned, with permission, to the Mass of 1962 and, as others have noted, it is thriving and growing. But it is not what the Council itself specifically had in mind, although it is the Mass of the ages.

     Then you have the moderates. Those in the middle. Me and a few others.          But I am going to insist on my right as a Catholic and as priest to celebrate          the liturgy according to the Council, according to the presently approved          liturgical books, to celebrate a form of the Mass that therefore needs          no special permission-and which in fact cannot be prohibited-what I've          called "the Mass of Vatican II."

ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/fessio_massv2_2_jan05.asp

FYI, Fr. Fessio usualy says or sings the NO in Latin facing East, Towards the Lord. Here’s a link to a Picture of him in Elevation and Adoration!

Mass at Cristo Rey Carmelite Monastery in San Francisco
ignatius.com/Staff/FatherFessio.aspx?SID=1
Scroll about 1/2 way down to find the picture - It’ll be worth the scroll!

I think one step towards saying (or singing) the EF in the Vernacular would be to have the priests reverently say the canon of the Mass so the congregation could hear them and pray along with them. I think the “Silent Canon” not only becomes a bar to “Active Participation”, but becomes a way for the priest to RAPIDLY say the Latin & HURRY things along. Reverently and deliberately praying the canon might add 5-10 minutes to the celebration of the EF, but I really do believe it would enable those who are following along in their Missals to pray the Mass with the priests and to enter into the Upper Room as I believe our Lord wanted us to do (“Do this in my anamnesis” Gk of the Gospels)…

And, I wouldn’t give the Translation of the EF to a committee such as was done for the OF, but see if there is an existing translation that is acceptable doctrinally, but communicates the majesty and mystery of the Divine Liturgy, that allows those present to feel the presence of God the Son made flesh, crucified, risen from the dead and ascended into heaven, and of the multitude of those worshiping the Holy Trinity and “the Lamb slain from before the Foundation of the World” in the eternal Heavenly Liturgy.

I don’t trust the ICEL to do this job - sorry.

Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

You said:

"Latin the sacred language chosen by God for the Universal Church, is by that choice demonstrably more precious in the eyes of God than other languages."

Now you say three languages are chosen by God.

You cannot prove this assertion…how in the world can one know what God chooses, and how can we presume to know Almighty God even has a preference?

God does not need our language, He can see into our hearts. We are the ones who need language, it is a crutch for us because we are not perfect.

Whenever anyone says they know what color socks God prefers, step back a minute and think about it. We cannot put God in a box, we cannot speak for Him and we cannot limit Him.

It is people, human creatures, who have at times retained old language styles for prayer, and it is all about practical considerations, not a dictate from the Divine.

Hesychios:

You’re quite right about God not needing our language. Heaven will probably be an magnificent mixture of silence and music, which we’ll all somehow understand, because we’ll all worship, contemplate the wonders and mystery of the Trinity.

But, We need language, not only to communication, but to inspire devotion and adoration. Otherwise, we would all be fine worshiping our Lord in that horrible academic business English of the Novus Ordo (including the various Orthodox Churches in America), and there would be no need for a TAC or the 28 Churches that are in union with His Holiness. Since you wouldn’t be caught dead using that dreadful liturgical form (even if someone could make it conform to Orthodox Doctrine), since there is a TAC still negotiating with Rome, and the other 28 Churches all have heir own beautiful liturgies, I have to conclude that most of us need language that inspires us, that gives us just a whiff of the eternal, that isn’t bound by time and space, that’s timeless.

We’re not mountain climbers - We need every bit of help we can get to bring us into the presence of God. That’s why C.S. Lewis wrote Screwtape Letters but never wrote a book of letters with the advice to someone’s Guardian Angel.

Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Getting a bit off topic, but I would be VERY interested in seeing the developement of an Anglican rite in the Church as more and more convert.

Liturgy based on the book of Common prayer and in English are already happening.

NarrowPath:

Follow this story - Follow these links…:harp:

Traditional Anglican Communion
acahomeorg0.web701.discountasp.net/tac/tac_index.aspx

The Messenger Journal - 25th February 2009
Primate clarifies aspects of several reports on TAC- Holy See Initiative
themessenger.com.au/News/20090225.htm

Anglican Missal Online - OLD Church of England
openlibrary.org/details/anglicanmissal00churuoft

The Continuing Anglican Churchman
My Very Own American Alter Missal

Proof that the American Missal teaches Transubstantiation - “Out of the mouths of idiots…” (includes chunks of American Missal)
anglicanhistory.org/liturgy/grammer_missal/

And, If you’re interested, the Anglican Breviary was reprinted by Dan Lula…
anglicanbreviary.net/history.html
anglicanbreviary.net/

I must tell you that the TAC can be a “small world experience” - I’ve met the Primate and spoke with him and the telephone. Same with a few of the other Bishops, one of whom I convinced to go along with the Reunion…

Please include this reunion in your prayers - Not only are we talking about 400,000 members of the TAC, but we’re talking about another few million who would probably filter on over within a few years after the deed was done…

Well, LONG -PAST Bed-Time… :hypno: Good Night… :tiphat:

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[wisdomseeker]

Famule:

I’ll have to reread the GIRM. Meanwhile, I’ll trust my friend , Fr. Fessio:

The Mass of Vatican II, by Fr. Joseph Fessio, S.J.
You can see it, perhaps, by contrasting Mass facing the people with Mass facing East or facing the Lord. I don’t say Mass “with my back to the people” anymore than Patton went through Germany with his “back to the soldiers.” Patton led the Third Army across Germany and they followed him to achieve a goal. The Mass is part of the Pilgrim Church on the way to our goal, our heavenly homeland. This world is not our heavenly homeland. We don’t sit around in a circle and look at each other. We want to look *with *each other and with the priest towards the rising sun, the rays of grace, where the Son will come again in glory on the clouds.

     And so, in Mass celebrated in the traditional way, the priest does face          the people when he speaks on God's behalf to proclaim the Word and explain          it. And he does face the people when he receives their gifts. And then          he turns to face with the people and to offer those gifts up to our common          Father, praying that the Holy Spirit will come down and transform those          gifts into the Body and Blood of Christ. And when that most sacred act          takes place, the priest turns to offer the gifts back to the people. I          think that is much more dramatic. Whether I am right or not, all I'm asking          is a right to exist. If not peaceful coexistence, at least coexistence.          
     
     Now strange as it may appear, there is absolutely no permission required          to say Mass facing East. The Pope does it every morning in his chapel.          But there is such a taboo against it that most pastors would be afraid          to do it for fear they would be exiled to some lowly parish.

ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/fessio_massv2_1_jan05.asp

The Mass of Vatican II, Page 2
We have now two extremes and a moderate position. One extreme position is the kind of informal Mass, all in English, facing the people, with contemporary music, which does not at all correspond with what the Council had in mind. But it is legitimate, it is permitted; it is not wrong. And we have on the other extreme those who have returned, with permission, to the Mass of 1962 and, as others have noted, it is thriving and growing. But it is not what the Council itself specifically had in mind, although it is the Mass of the ages.

     Then you have the moderates. Those in the middle. Me and a few others.          But I am going to insist on my right as a Catholic and as priest to celebrate          the liturgy according to the Council, according to the presently approved          liturgical books, to celebrate a form of the Mass that therefore needs          no special permission-and which in fact cannot be prohibited-what I've          called "the Mass of Vatican II."

ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/fessio_massv2_2_jan05.asp

FYI, Fr. Fessio usualy says or sings the NO in Latin facing East, Towards the Lord. Here’s a link to a Picture of him in Elevation and Adoration!

Mass at Cristo Rey Carmelite Monastery in San Francisco
ignatius.com/Staff/FatherFessio.aspx?SID=1
Scroll about 1/2 way down to find the picture - It’ll be worth the scroll!

I don’t trust the ICEL to do this job - sorry.

Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael

this is beautifull. that is what we are waiting for. i remember when my priest said one time: back then people faced east because they did not know that God is everywhere, today we know that is why we can face the people instead. i dont agree with that. we must keep the old. otherwise where we will be 20 years from now if we keep changing the Mass. there is no stopping we just are going to come up with more and more ideas.

i just dont understand the purpos of giving up our hymns to bring songs from other faith that have no idea what the Mass is all about. at my parish, we sit there and listen to this woman singing all protestant songs. all she is doing is showing that she has a voice to sing and she has a time of her life. it is very annoying.

 

[Hesychios]

Hesychios:

You’re quite right about God not needing our language. Heaven will probably be an magnificent mixture of silence and music, which we’ll all somehow understand, because we’ll all worship, contemplate the wonders and mystery of the Trinity.

But, We need language, not only to communication, but to inspire devotion and adoration. Otherwise, we would all be fine worshiping our Lord in that horrible academic business English of the Novus Ordo (including the various Orthodox Churches in America), and there would be no need for a TAC or the 28 Churches that are in union with His Holiness. Since you wouldn’t be caught dead using that dreadful liturgical form (even if someone could make it conform to Orthodox Doctrine), since there is a TAC still negotiating with Rome, and the other 28 Churches all have heir own beautiful liturgies, I have to conclude that most of us need language that inspires us, that gives us just a whiff of the eternal, that isn’t bound by time and space, that’s timeless.

We’re not mountain climbers - We need every bit of help we can get to bring us into the presence of God. That’s why C.S. Lewis wrote Screwtape Letters but never wrote a book of letters with the advice to someone’s Guardian Angel.

Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael

I don’t have an argument with the essence of your post. I am not defending the ICEL translation here, so please do not mistake what I have had to say on this subject.

I agree that dignified language is an appropriate component of proper worship. We must give our ultimate best to the Lord, even with our limited means.

And, worship should nourish our spirituality, properly done it just may.

There is only one liturgy, one eternal Eucharist, one Perfect Sacrifice. And all who partake of this eternal Eucharist do so with the angels and the saints and…theoretically all present past and future Christians! It is a cosmic liturgy. When we go to Mass or Divine Liturgy we are in the unique circumstance that space and time meet eternity.

View attachment 5708

It is no place to quibble about which language God prefers. We just do our best…in every place, every language, each liturgy and culture…each person in his own less than perfect human way.

Pax et Bonum*
Michael,* also

BTW, the Screwtape letters have had an important place in my own spiritual development.

 

[narrowpath]

NarrowPath:

Follow this story - Follow these links…:harp:

I must tell you that the TAC can be a “small world experience” - I’ve met the Primate and spoke with him and the telephone. Same with a few of the other Bishops, one of whom I convinced to go along with the Reunion…

Please include this reunion in your prayers - Not only are we talking about 400,000 members of the TAC, but we’re talking about another few million who would probably filter on over within a few years after the deed was done…

Well, LONG -PAST Bed-Time… :hypno: Good Night… :tiphat:

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

Thanks a ton! I didn’t even realize that Anglicans prayed the Liturgy of the Hours. When I was in Madrid, I got a book of old pictures used in the ancient european LOTH books.

Those were very interesting, and I will pray for the reunion of our Churches.

 

[larousser]

By traditional Mass I mean one according to the rubics that were in effect for the entire Latin Church prior to the promulgation of the Mass of Pope Paul VI.

Would you be in favor of have a few places in a good English translation instead of Latin? I am thinking primarily of the Readings (instead of having them repeated in English as part of the homily).

Also, would you be in favor of most or all of the Mass to be in English (good translation), such as was the case of the “transitional” Mass in the late 1960’s?

It was (and still is!) quite common in continental Europe, going back long before the Council, for the readings to be announced in the vernacular.

I personally would be against it here. Instead I favour simply repeating them in the vernacular at the homily.

But in the English language, all the translations should use traditional formulation IMO (eg ‘we beseech thee’).