English Mass vs A Spanish Mass [edited]

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aliciar

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I’ve attended both an english mass and a spanish mass. Why does the spanish mass celebrate with guitars and other instruments and people clap and sing with smiles on their faces and the english mass is a solemn serious affair. I mean, going to mass should be a happy event every sunday, not a chore. I am sure Jesus will be pleased to have us sing happy, especially at the beginning and end of mass.
 
The styles of worship are coming from different cultural backgrounds. Even if I don’t clap and smile, I am still happy when I worship. I just express it in a different way. Remember in the Old Testament where God spoke to the prophet in a “still, small voice”? A more quiet approach helps me listen for God’s voice.

By all means, find the style of worship that best suits you.
 
God was also worshipped with musical intruments in the Old Testament - a lyre is not too far removed from a guitar.

I agree that it is purely a cultural thing.
 
aliciar said:
I’ve attended both an english mass and a spanish mass. Why does the spanish mass celebrate with guitars and other instruments and people clap and sing with smiles on their faces and the english mass is a solemn serious affair. I mean, going to mass should be a happy event every sunday, not a chore. I am sure Jesus will be pleased to have us sing happy, especially at the beginning and end of mass.
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I think that you are dealing in generalities, here. First of all, there is really no such act as an “American Mass” or a “Spanish Mass.”

As someone who lives on the Texas side of the Rio Grande, I can tell you that not all Spanish-language Masses are happy-clappy affairs. At the Cathedral, most of the Masses are in Spanish, and, they feature an organ. The one glaringly bad exception is the one at 11:30Am which features Mariachi music. This particular genre is incompatible with the Holy Sacrifice since the it is secular in nature. Furthermore, it does not even count as inculturation because it is not something indigenous, since Mariachi music has its roots in cantinas. Oddly enough, if you are able to catch the next broadcast of the Solemnity of Our Lady of Guadalupe from her basilica in Mexico City, you will find that while the mariachi bands perform before the Mass, once the bell is rung, the music switches to the organ and a full choir that sings genuine, sacred music.

Second, we should not equate solemnity, beauty, majesty and dignity with being dour. I have planned many Masses for our diocese, our cathedral and another parish. When I have had to do one in English and one in Spanish, I have defaulted to organ and choral pieces. When they’ve been bilingual, I have defaulted to adding Latin. The White Mass for Health Care professionals, included English and Spanish, with some of the parts of the Mass in Latin.

Unfortunately, though, in some parts of our diocese, there are some choirs which use the “ranchera” genre, which is worse than Mariachi music and sounds like something from the neighborhood bar. It is quite disconcerting and not at all appropriate for the Holy Sacrifice.

We have to remember, as Pope Benedict noted in Sacramentum Caritatis, that as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that “one song is as good as another.”
 
benedictgal said:
Posted by aliciar
I’ve attended both an english mass and a spanish mass. Why does the spanish mass celebrate with guitars and other instruments and people clap and sing with smiles on their faces and the english mass is a solemn serious affair. I mean, going to mass should be a happy event every sunday, not a chore. I am sure Jesus will be pleased to have us sing happy, especially at the beginning and end of mass.
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Rancheras --that reminds me of the music I’ve heard at those big parties here in Tx. --referred to as “pachangas” . Quite “lively” —lots of drinking and dancing.

From past discussions with a number of Hispanic friends and acquaintances —the current happy/clapy type of Spanish Masses seems to be an innovation. So I believe you are right benedictgal—the type of innovative Mass is not fitting for the Holy Sacrifice.
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Actually the mariachi used (at least in my experiences) when it is a solemn occasion… such as when I go to mexico for Saint Joseph feast day… It is very beautiful and reverend…

This video is an example…

youtube.com/watch?v=6S6mQmJxnAo
 
aliciar said:
I’ve attended both an english mass and a spanish mass. Why does the spanish mass celebrate with guitars and other instruments and people clap and sing with smiles on their faces and the english mass is a solemn serious affair. I mean, going to mass should be a happy event every sunday, not a chore. I am sure Jesus will be pleased to have us sing happy, especially at the beginning and end of mass.
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Not everything that is serious is necessarily joyless or a chore. Plenty of things can be both - think about getting married, moving house or having a baby for example.

I’m sure I don’t look or act the same at Mass as I do at someone’s birthday party. That doesn’t mean I’m one little bit less honestly joyful nor that it’s in any way a chore for me to be there.

On the contrary, I many times make a special effort to go to daily Mass because I love it so much. And sometimes it’s the parties that are more of a chore for me - I’m not the type who enjoys seeing people acting really silly and getting liquored up.

Altogether it’s just a quieter form of joy.
 
This particular genre is incompatible with the Holy Sacrifice since the it is secular in nature.
**Speaking as someone with a master’s in music, I would like you to tell me how notes can be either sacred or secular in themselves.

And a given genre of music is still no more than notes.

It’s the PURPOSE to which they are put that makes them sacred or secular.**
 
bpbasilphx said:
This particular genre is incompatible with the Holy Sacrifice since the it is secular in nature.
**Speaking as someone with a master’s in music, I would like you to tell me how notes can be either sacred or secular in themselves.

And a given genre of music is still no more than notes.

It’s the PURPOSE to which they are put that makes them sacred or secular.**
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I stand by my statements. Mariachi music is incompatible with the essence of the Holy Sacriifice of the Mass. As Pope John Paul II noted in his Chirograph on Sacred Music:
  1. In continuity with the teachings of St Pius X and the Second Vatican Council, it is necessary first of all to emphasize that music destined for sacred rites must have holiness as its reference point: indeed, “sacred music increases in holiness to the degree that it is intimately linked with liturgical action”[11]. For this very reason, “not all without distinction that is outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross its threshold”, my venerable Predecessor Paul VI wisely said, commenting on a Decree of the Council of Trent[12]. And he explained that “if music - instrumental and vocal - does not possess at the same time the sense of prayer, dignity and beauty, it precludes the entry into the sphere of the sacred and the religious”[13]. Today, moreover, the meaning of the category “sacred music” has been broadened to include repertoires that cannot be part of the celebration without violating the spirit and norms of the Liturgy itself.
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This particular genre is more associated with parties and such than with the sacred liturgy. Furthermore, Mariachi music has not been around for centuries. It is more of a recent 20th century genre.
 
I have noticed that the Hispanic people tend to be charismatic. We have a Spanish speaking prayer group in our parish that are always raising money to have healing masses and retreats.
 
benedictgal said:
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bpbasilphx:
Speaking as someone with a master’s in music, I would like you to tell me how notes can be either sacred or secular in themselves.

And a given genre of music is still no more than notes.

It’s the PURPOSE to which they are put that makes them sacred or secular.
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I stand by my statements. Mariachi music is incompatible with the essence of the Holy Sacriifice of the Mass. …

This particular genre is more associated with parties and such than with the sacred liturgy. Furthermore, Mariachi music has not been around for centuries. It is more of a recent 20th century genre.
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FWIW, I happen to agree and will take the liberty to add something: the longevity of a particular style of music doesn’t have much to do with its suitability anyway. Let’s take the example of what is commonly called in the US “belly dance” music. Yes, it’s absolutely of Oriental origin, and it has been around for quite a few centuries. And while I happen to enjoy it very much, (it’s an ethnic thing), I would never tolerate its use liturgically, be it West, East, or Orient. Now, before someone jumps on me about the similarities in modality, etc, with authentic Oriental liturgical music, I can say that the particular rhythms involved differ from those used to used liturgically. The same is true of the spirit in which the music is used and in which it exists.
 
plato3 said:
I have noticed that the Hispanic people tend to be charismatic. We have a Spanish speaking prayer group in our parish that are always raising money to have healing masses and retreats.
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I suppose that depends on the congregation, and perhaps where the people hail from. I am aware of Spanish-speaking people (I eschew the overly generic term “Hispanic”) from various lands who are very much in the spirit of the tradition of the Latin Church, to the point that they actually prefer the EF. No “charismatic” and no mariachi music involved there fore sure.
 
I don’t see how a solemn, serious Mass is unhappy. Myself, I’m much happier with something very traditional and solemn, rather than ‘contemporary’ worship. Honestly it kind of reminds me of some Protestant services.
 
When in the US, I try to find a Spanish-language Mass, becasue they tend to feature fewer “innovations”, except the increasing frequency of congregations to assume the orans posture.
Where I have attended Mass with mariachi, the musicians used their instruments and voices for traditional “Mass-type” music. The trumpets seem to add to the joy of an Alleluya or Gloria.
The few times I have seen clapping was with a spirited recessional after the celebrant has left the sanctuary.
Do guitars belong at Mass? It depends upon how they are used.
 
How come when I go to an English Mass there is an army of Extraordinary Minister of Communion and people hold hands during the Our Father but not when I go to a “Spanish” Mass?
😉
 
RLT said:
How come when I go to an English Mass there is an army of Extraordinary Minister of Communion and people hold hands during the Our Father but not when I go to a “Spanish” Mass?
😉
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I hate to dispute you, but, that has not been my experience down here in the hinter-land. While I cannot speak to what happens at the Pater Noster, since this topic is under a moratorium, I can tell you that in many parishes in my neck of the woods, there are too many EMHCs during the Spanish-language Masses.
 
It could be that the “American” Masses you have attended had low levels of participation in singing, and thus you concluded that the people in attendance were only there to fulfill their minimum obligation. If that’s what you are getting at, then most “American” parishes are guilty as charged. (blame the Irish):hmmm:
 
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