English Mass vs A Spanish Mass [edited]

[Tepeyac]

Sorry but I’ll have to split this response into at least 2 posts.

First of all, with all due respect, please do not play the cultural card.”

• If by “do not play the cultural card” you mean I’m trying to avoid discussing the questions on hand on the contrary I think I’ve attempted to address as many of your points as I could with the limited time I had.
• If by “do not play the cultural card” you mean I shouldn’t bring up aspects of culture history that’s impossible since the issue we’re dealing with is inherently cultural and historical as well as religious.
• If by “do not play the cultural card” you simply mean you don’t like the answers I gave then I’m sorry you feel that way.

Mariachi music is a fairly recent innovation, thus, it would not really fall under inculturation.

• That is your own assertion but Sacrosanctum Concilum say nothing about how recent a musical tradition has to be.
• If you look in a dictionary or encyclopedia under “inculturation” it will not place age limits on a tradition either.

Comparing it to flour tortillas is also not a really good argument, as we are discussing what should and should not be used for the Mass.

• It is a perfectly fine argument
• You were asserting that use of a Mexican tradition can only be considered “inculturation” if it was completely indigenous.
• I pointed out that plenty of elements of present Mexican culture contained non indigenous elements.
• My original example I believe was the Catholic faith itself. I believe it’s a vital and important piece of Mexican culture but by your standards it could not be because it was brought over by the Spanish.
• The flour tortilla was a follow-up example. But it’s an effective one because it is such an everyday piece of culture.

Many folks associate Mariachis with fiestas. In fact, when our local convention and visitors bureau hosts convention groups and tour buses, the groups typically ask for a welcoming reception with a Mariachi band. So, your idea of referring to them as a stringed orchestra with horns does not work very well.

But that’s what they are. They’re a small string orchestra. The just happen to specialize in Mexican Folk Music and dress like well-to-do Mexican landowners of the 19th century instead of European gentleman of the 19th and 20th century (tuxedos or white-tie and tails).

When they have been employed for these Masses, their brand of music is not a good fit for the solemnity and dignity of the Mass.

You have repeated this a number of times. Could you elaborate. Could you speculate why Guadalajara’s Cardinal might disagree?

When they have been employed for these Masses, their brand of music is not a good fit for the solemnity and dignity of the Mass. In fact, not many of them know what is proper to the Mass. For example, at one wedding at the Cathedral, the rector had to send the wedding coordinator up to the choir loft to silence the bad because they were playing “Spanish Eyes” during the offertory…

• This is has nothing to do with the nature of Mariachis but of the particular groups employed.
• Was that one at the Cathedral screened or auditioned? Were they instructed on the the music to be used? The same group was probably capable of playing “Amor Es Entregarse or “Adios Reina del Cielo” or whatever the rector felt was appropriate.
• Sounds to me like insufficient planning might have been applied.
• Although the rector might have been completely taken by surprise too. Things happen!
• I’ve never heard the mariachis around this area play “Spanish Eyes during Mass. In fact a mariachi plays every year for our Our Lady of Guadalupe Mass. They play the same music that all the other Spanish music groups play at our Spanish Masses.
• Does this mean when the other music groups play that music it’s okay but when a mariachi plays the same music it’s wrong?

 

[Tepeyac]

…continued,

Perhaps you should read what Pope St. Pius X wrote in his MP on Sacred Music,…

However St. Pius X’s motu proprio does not stand alone but alongside all the other music & liturgical documents that the Church has given before and since including Sacrosanctum Concilum ( which followed it and gave the okay for the use of other musical forms) so I think it would be misleading to imply it is the final word on music in the Church.

I would be careful about appealing solely to St. Pius X’s motu proprio or other decisions made in the late 19th and early 20th century. It led people to decisions like that of the Society of St. Gregory of America. In the 20’s they made a list of music that they believed did not fall under the motu proprio’s standards. It included the works of Mozart, Haydn, and Schubert

The musical value of the religious compositions of Mozart, Joseph Haydn, Schubert, G. Rossini, C. M. von Webber does not enter into the question. The exception taken is their purely liturgical unfitness according to the principles outlined in the Motu Proprio of Pius X, and the Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius XI.

You can see the rest of the “Black List” in this pdf document at this link: musicasacra.com/pdf/blacklist.pdf

Their intentions were noble and they were sincerely trying to apply the standards of the motu proprio in this country at that time, but they wound up including people on the list we today take for granted like Mozart, Haydn, and especially Schubert. To some of us it makes them sound like “the Soup Nazi” from Seinfeld: “No Schubert’s Ave Maria for you!”.

I’m running out of time and will continue my response at some point during the weekend. I will try to return to the thread later.