English should supplant Latin as Church’s official language‽

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Ahh, the arrogance of us Americans. 😉

“We should change the official language of the Church and, of course, it is only right that it should be changed to our language.”

I don’t think we need to worry about this happening anytime soon.
The liberal multicultural Americans. 😉
 
This is a good argument for the usage of Latin in the Mass: Fr. Nikolaus Gihr The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass “The Language Used in the Celebration of the Holy Mass”: View attachment 6136
 
Part of Catholicism is ultimately being able to retain the teachings of the Apostles and through them Christ. It is much easier to retain original meaning of words in a language hardly spoken. Especially hardly spoken outside of the Church. Meanings of words will be passed down by people who had meanings passed down to them and so on inside the Church and Her teachings; Thereby preserving the meanings from outside influence which could degrade or alter the purity of said meanings and what they meant when they were said.
 
Part of Catholicism is ultimately being able to retain the teachings of the Apostles and through them Christ. **It is much easier to retain original meaning of words in a language hardly spoken. Especially hardly spoken outside of the Church. **Meanings of words will be passed down by people who had meanings passed down to them and so on inside the Church and Her teachings; Thereby preserving the meanings from outside influence which could degrade or alter the purity of said meanings and what they meant when they were said.
I am well aware of the arguments in favour of Latin as the official language of the Church, and while I am in favour of its retention for lots of reasons, I want to play Devil’s Advocate a bit here as well.

A language which is hardly spoken is also hardly understood - so WHO exactly is retaining the original teachings, and how well are they passing them on to the general and generally monolingual laity (who need to know them fully as much as any Latin scholar does)? Isn’t translation involved in any event, for the most part, at some point of the process?

Your argument sounds a bit like arguing for preserving the purity of a diamond by embedding it in the centre of a 10-foot-thick concrete slab. Sure, it’s safe, it won’t be subject to the elements, it can’t be stolen … but it certainly isn’t useful for anything! It’s not serving any practical purpose by being ‘preserved’ in such a manner.

A diamond above all NEEDS to be seen … and the teachings of the Church above all need to be disseminated far and wide, scattered like seed so that they can bear fruit in our hearts, shown like a light on a lampstand, not locked away like a bar of gold in Fort Knox! So there are good reasons to use whatever language will best do that - which these days isn’t Latin.

And need I point out that Latin up until even a hundred years ago was very widely taught and read and studied OUTSIDE the Church? It was the language of science above all others, necessary for secular historians, lawyers and many other professions and branches of academia, and was not uniquely the language of religion by any means.

And all scientists, lawyers and classical historians knew Latin, as did most every person who had more than a rudimentary education. Classics and classical languages (Latin and Greek) were taught as a fairly routine part of higher education. So that part of your argument (that it was mostly understood only within the Church) doesn’t hold water at all.
 
A language which is hardly spoken is also hardly understood - so WHO exactly is retaining the original teachings, and how well are they passing them on to the general and generally monolingual laity (who need to know them fully as much as any Latin scholar does)?
Priests who have all (hopefully) learned Latin in the seminary!
Isn’t translation involved in any event, for the most part, at some point of the process?
Sure, but how much less disagreement would there be in translating from one language than from several? E.g., the Second Vatican Council drafted documents in other languages like French and even translated them to Latin. Some problems in the interpretation of the Council can be traced back to the imprecision of even the best translations, e.g., from French to English or from French to Latin, etc. Also, making English the universal language would introduce an extra, unneeded level of translation: Latin to English, then English to vernacular. Besides, there are far more Latin documents in the Church than English ones, so why not just strive for perfection and precision and avoid unneeded translating?
Your argument sounds a bit like arguing for preserving the purity of a diamond by embedding it in the centre of a 10-foot-thick concrete slab.
So would this “10-foot-thick concrete slab” would be like the hierarchy of the Church protecting Her “diamonds” or richest treasures like our dogma, doctrine, teachings, faith, etc.?
Sure, it’s safe, it won’t be subject to the elements, it can’t be stolen … but it certainly isn’t useful for anything! It’s not serving any practical purpose by being ‘preserved’ in such a manner.

A diamond above all NEEDS to be seen … and the teachings of the Church above all need to be disseminated far and wide, scattered like seed so that they can bear fruit in our hearts, shown like a light on a lampstand, not locked away like a bar of gold in Fort Knox!
Outside of the clerical hierarchy of the Church, i.e., for the laity, yes, teachings should be in the vernacular, but the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not predominately a teaching, hence Latin should be retained to maintain its profound, sacrificial, mysterious nature; this is ultimately what the Mass is! Read this from the section in Fr. Gihr’s book I attached as a PDF to my previous post to this thread:
The Church is moved by interests most sacred to maintain and to introduce wherever she is spread in the world and receives new nations into her pale, the Latin as the common language of her liturgy. This conduct on her part does not rest on a discipline of secrecy. The Church does not wish to conceal her mysteries from the faithful. It is rather her very ardent desire that her children should understand all the wealth and beauty of her divine worship; hence she obliges and admonishes her priests to unfold8 to the people the meaning of the celebration of the mystical Sacrifice by clearly and devoutly explaining from time to time the holy Sacrifice of the Mass with all its ceremonies and prayers in the school-room and in the church, in the catechetical instructions and in sermons. After the fathers of the Council of Trent had subjected the objection raised to the Latin tongue in Church service to thorough examination, they unanimously declared that, although the Mass embodied a vast amount of religious instruction, they still deemed it inexpedient that the Holy Sacrifice should be everywhere (passim) celebrated in the vernacular; that, on the contrary, everywhere the rite (custom) authorized by the Holy Roman Church should be maintained. But in order that the sheep of Christ may not hunger and the children may not ask for bread without there being some one to break it unto them, the Council commands pastors of souls, that during the celebration of Mass they frequently explain some part of what has been read in the Mass, and that especially on Sundays and holidays they give instruction of some mystery of this most Holy Sacrifice. The Church acts thus, because she is persuaded that an unchangeable and universal language for divine worship prevents, on the one hand, much harm and danger, and, on the other hand, offers numerous advantages for her liturgical object, as well as for her activity and efficiency in general. These advantages are so great, that the profit the people might in a certain respect and in some cases derive from understanding the language used in the divine service, bears no comparison thereunto, and is far surpassed thereby; besides said profit may be secured in some better and more sure way and thus be easily compensated.
I think to push to eliminate Latin originates from a frustration that people are not willing to be catechized or that they have not been catechized correctly in the first place, so somehow a Mass in the vernacular will help motivate them to learn about our faith because it will be more familiar to them. The Mass, however, should not be a replacement for Sunday school! It is a Holy Sacrifice, a profound mystery that no human mind can completely comprehend! It is absolutely sublime.
 
A language which is hardly spoken is also hardly understood - so WHO exactly is retaining the original teachings, and how well are they passing them on to the general and generally monolingual laity (who need to know them fully as much as any Latin scholar does)?
Priests who have all (hopefully) learned Latin in the seminary!
Isn’t translation involved in any event, for the most part, at some point of the process?
Sure, but how much less disagreement would there be in translating from one language than from several? E.g., the Second Vatican Council drafted documents in other languages like French and even translated them to Latin. Some problems in the interpretation of the Council can be traced back to the imprecision of even the best translations, e.g., from French to English or from French to Latin, etc. Also, making English the universal language would introduce an extra, unneeded level of translation: Latin to English, then English to vernacular. Besides, there are far more Latin documents in the Church than English ones, so why not just strive for perfection and precision and avoid unneeded translating?
Your argument sounds a bit like arguing for preserving the purity of a diamond by embedding it in the centre of a 10-foot-thick concrete slab.
So would this “10-foot-thick concrete slab” would be like the hierarchy of the Church protecting Her “diamonds” or richest treasures like our dogma, doctrine, teachings, faith, etc.?
Sure, it’s safe, it won’t be subject to the elements, it can’t be stolen … but it certainly isn’t useful for anything! It’s not serving any practical purpose by being ‘preserved’ in such a manner.

A diamond above all NEEDS to be seen … and the teachings of the Church above all need to be disseminated far and wide, scattered like seed so that they can bear fruit in our hearts, shown like a light on a lampstand, not locked away like a bar of gold in Fort Knox!
Outside of the clerical hierarchy of the Church, i.e., for the laity, yes, teachings should be in the vernacular, but the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not predominately a teaching, hence Latin should be retained to maintain its profound, sacrificial, mysterious nature; this is ultimately what the Mass is! Read this from the section in Fr. Gihr’s book I attached as a PDF to my previous post to this thread:
The Church is moved by interests most sacred to maintain and to introduce wherever she is spread in the world and receives new nations into her pale, the Latin as the common language of her liturgy. This conduct on her part does not rest on a discipline of secrecy. The Church does not wish to conceal her mysteries from the faithful. It is rather her very ardent desire that her children should understand all the wealth and beauty of her divine worship; hence she obliges and admonishes her priests to unfold to the people the meaning of the celebration of the mystical Sacrifice by clearly and devoutly explaining from time to time the holy Sacrifice of the Mass with all its ceremonies and prayers in the school-room and in the church, in the catechetical instructions and in sermons. After the fathers of the Council of Trent had subjected the objection raised to the Latin tongue in Church service to thorough examination, they unanimously declared that, although the Mass embodied a vast amount of religious instruction, they still deemed it inexpedient that the Holy Sacrifice should be everywhere (passim) celebrated in the vernacular; that, on the contrary, everywhere the rite (custom) authorized by the Holy Roman Church should be maintained. But in order that the sheep of Christ may not hunger and the children may not ask for bread without there being some one to break it unto them, the Council commands pastors of souls, that during the celebration of Mass they frequently explain some part of what has been read in the Mass, and that especially on Sundays and holidays they give instruction of some mystery of this most Holy Sacrifice. The Church acts thus, because she is persuaded that an unchangeable and universal language for divine worship prevents, on the one hand, much harm and danger, and, on the other hand, offers numerous advantages for her liturgical object, as well as for her activity and efficiency in general. These advantages are so great, that the profit the people might in a certain respect and in some cases derive from understanding the language used in the divine service, bears no comparison thereunto, and is far surpassed thereby; besides said profit may be secured in some better and more sure way and thus be easily compensated.
I think to push to eliminate Latin originates from a frustration that people are not willing to be catechized or that they have not been catechized correctly in the first place, so somehow a Mass in the vernacular will help motivate them to learn about our faith because it will be more familiar to them. The Mass, however, should not be a replacement for Sunday school! It is a Holy Sacrifice, a profound mystery that no human mind can completely comprehend! It is absolutely sublime.
 
You know I find this whole premise kind of funny.

The Catholic Church is something more than just the Roman Catholic Church. In that sense, I really wonder whether Latin is the “official” language of the Church…I highly doubt it in fact.

Clearly, and rightfully so, it is the language of the Roman Church, which holds the preeminent place, but we forget that the Catholic Church is an intercommunion of 23 self-governing Catholic churches, each with their own particular expression of the one Catholic faith.

Just something to keep in mind.
 
Geremia,

Thanks most of your thoughts were similar to mine as I read Lily’s post.

LilyM,

I know you were just playing devils advocate so a few if not all of concerns mentioned in your post are not necessarily your own. Thanks for bringing some objections to the table to talk about.
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LilyM:
And need I point out that Latin up until even a hundred years ago was very widely taught and read and studied OUTSIDE the Church? It was the language of science above all others, necessary for secular historians, lawyers and many other professions and branches of academia, and was not uniquely the language of religion by any means.

And all scientists, lawyers and classical historians knew Latin, as did most every person who had more than a rudimentary education. Classics and classical languages (Latin and Greek) were taught as a fairly routine part of higher education. So that part of your argument (that it was mostly understood only within the Church) doesn’t hold water at all.
Sorry I should explain my statement “It is much easier to retain original meaning of words in a language hardly spoken. Especially hardly spoken outside of the Church.”

I had in my head that Latin is a dead language, that no one is really using Latin as a language where ideas are written and preserved (Church councils) the way the Catholic Church does. At least to the best of my knowledge. Sorry I didn’t explain myself very well and I know where you can get the conclusion you did from my statement.
 
No…One of the gret advantages of Latin is it is a dead language, and the meaning of words never change or become slang terms…It will always mean what it did
 
You know I find this whole premise kind of funny.

The Catholic Church is something more than just the Roman Catholic Church. In that sense, I really wonder whether Latin is the “official” language of the Church…I highly doubt it in fact.

Clearly, and rightfully so, it is the language of the Roman Church, which holds the preeminent place, but we forget that the Catholic Church is an intercommunion of 23 self-governing Catholic churches, each with their own particular expression of the one Catholic faith.

Just something to keep in mind.
All documents applying to the Catholic Church as a whole are rendered in Latin for the official versions; documents within any particular church sui iuris are regulated by that church.

Heck, the particular law of many metropolia in the latin church are executed and promulgated in the vernacular.
 
From My Catholic Faith, printed in the 50’s:

Why is Mass said in Latin?

Mass is said in Latin because Latin is the official language of the Western Church… In the Eastern Churches, Mass is said in several other ancient languages

(emphasis not mine)
 
From what I’ve heard, there are a lot of Bishops & Priests (esp. in the USA, who aren’t any more literate in Latin than I am), and, at least in the LA Archdiocese, they’ve decided not to do anything about that.
 
Heck, the particular law of many metropolia in the latin church are executed and promulgated in the vernacular.
Unlike civil law which is executed in Latin? Lots of Latin phrases in law, you know. 🙂
 
Latin is a so called dead language.If the Pope writes something in Latin its meaning won’t change in years from now. The same can’t be said for English.

Now English and French are currently the most spoken languages worldwide and it could well be that more Catholics speak French than English, so should French then supplant Latin as the offical language of the Church? I’m sure, for example, I read somone that the Catechism was originally written in French???

The following link shows changes in the English language in realtion to the the King James Bible.

catholicapologetics.net/archaic_language.htm

Nehemiah 1:5 “terrible God.” In 1611 the word “terrible” meant “awesome.”

1 Corinthians 10:24 “Let no man seek his own, but every man another’s wealth.” Wealth in 1611 meant well being.
 
Maybe they can incorporate the Latin prayers within the English language. It’s not like we don’t have many terms like et cetera or persona non grata that aren’t used a lot in the vernacular. Would it bother that many people if dominus vobiscum became a normal household expression?

I really don’t understand all the dislike for Latin. How about if the Protestants start talking Latin? Would that trigger more interest in using familiar Latin prayers at all Catholic Masses?
 
Maybe they can incorporate the Latin prayers within the English language. It’s not like we don’t have many terms like et cetera or persona non grata that aren’t used a lot in the vernacular. Would it bother that many people if dominus vobiscum became a normal household expression?
You mean it isn’t? My jewish and pagan friends all know it and the reponse, et cum spiritu tuo.
I really don’t understand all the dislike for Latin. How about if the Protestants start talking Latin? Would that trigger more interest in using familiar Latin prayers at all Catholic Masses?
One of the big complaints recorded pre VII was the lack of understanding of Latin by Catholics. Many remembered just enough to be able to pronounce it, and to recite it by rote. (Including my mother, who was a convert and then a novice in the 50’s.) My cousins all spoke two languages (polish and english), and few took latin well enough to use it. I can pronounce written latin easily. Doesn’t mean I understand it. (I can figure out much with the use of a dictionary.)

Now, for me, I’m far more interested in Church Slavonic. Why? Because it’s far closer to the Russian I took in college, and still use from time to time. Then again, 15% of my state are nominally Russian Orthodox. (20% Catholics. Used to be 20% and 25%…)
 
I’m sure, for example, I read somone that the Catechism was originally written in French???
It sure was. The first edition (1992) was written in French, and other translations were made from that version. However, then it was translated into Latin and the Latin edition was promulgated as the official edition upon which all others should be based (see JP II’s Apostolic Letter Laetamur Magnopere). That is why the second edition of the CCC is the better one as it has been revised in accordance with the Latin text. There were several adjustments that needed to be made to the French edition (and subsequently the English translation, which are all conveniently listed right here).

Curiously, the English translation of the CCC on the Vatican website is still the first edition. That’s why I always go here to use the second edition.

Okay, more info than you probably were looking for, but, hey, I like to be thorough. 😉
 
Okay, more info than you probably were looking for, but, hey, I like to be thorough. 😉
Thorough is good 👍
Interesting information. Suprised the version of the CCC on the Vat website is the 1st ed though.
 
Now English and French are currently the most spoken languages worldwide
Inside the Church? Worldwide, Chinese, Spanish, and English are the top three most spoken languages (Ethnologue).
The following link shows changes in the English language in realtion to the the King James Bible.

catholicapologetics.net/archaic_language.htm
The King James Version is a Protestant bible, though. I find it strange they are talking about it rather than the Catholic versionDouay-Rheims, which is actually slightly older than the KJV.
Nehemiah 1:5 “terrible God.” In 1611 the word “terrible” meant “awesome.”
The D-R bible uses the same word here.
1 Corinthians 10:24 “Let no man seek his own, but every man another’s wealth.” Wealth in 1611 meant well being.
The D-R here says “Let no man seek his own, but that which is another’s.”
 
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