Enoch and Elijah question

[Soler]

How could Enoch and Elijah be taken up bodily into heaven if Christ had not yet atoned for our sins? I thought that human beings first got into heaven after Christ’s suffering, during the Harrowing of Hell. If anyone could help, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

—Soler.

 

[Soutane]

How could Enoch and Elijah be taken up bodily into heaven if Christ had not yet atoned for our sins? I thought that human beings first got into heaven after Christ’s suffering, during the Harrowing of Hell. If anyone could help, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

—Soler.

With God ALL things are possible or perhaps they were in the anteroom of heaven.Holy Scripture says it so it must be true.

 

[ziapueblo]

How could Enoch and Elijah be taken up bodily into heaven if Christ had not yet atoned for our sins? I thought that human beings first got into heaven after Christ’s suffering, during the Harrowing of Hell. If anyone could help, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

—Soler.

Enoch and Elijah are special cases. Just like The Blessed Virgin Mary. With God, all is possible!

God Bless,
ZP

 

[NotWorthy]

Although God sets guidelines for us, He’s not constrained by those guidelines.

For instance, just because we are sealed with the Holy Spirit at Baptism, doesn’t mean Cornelius couldn’t be filled with the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized.

 

[Benadam]

I think the key to understanding this is the Transfiguration.

They weren’t in heaven but existed in an elevated state. At the Transfiguration Elisha and Moses were up on the mountain. Though Peter acted as if Elisha and Moses were visitors it was in the light of Christ’s Transfiguration that the apostles were elevated and able to visit them on the mountain. I think this is the reason Jesus told Peter he didn’t know what he was saying. The cloud that enveloped them and caused confusion is the same cloud of presence that Moses first experienced

As St Thomas Aquinas wrote:
I answer that, Christ wished to be transfigured in order to show men His glory, and to arouse men to a desire of it, as stated above (Article 1). Now men are brought to the glory of eternal beatitude by Christ–not only those who lived after Him, but also those who preceded Him; therefore, when He was approaching His Passion, both “the multitude that followed” and that “which went before, cried saying: ‘Hosanna,’” as related Matthew 21:9, beseeching Him, as it were, to save them. Consequently it was fitting that witnesses should be present from among those who preceded Him–namely, Moses and Elias–and from those who followed after Him–namely, Peter, James, and John–that “in the mouth of two or three witnesses” this word might stand.

Now if they were in heaven they would not be waiting for salvation.

In the light of Christ’s Transfiguration Elisha and Moses were able to see the body that would be wounded so that their salvation would be complete and in that same light the apostles could see them with Jesus because they existed in an elevated state symbolized by the mountain. They were all experiencing a taste of what was to come.

 

[Ron_Conte]

I don’t believe that the correct interpretation of those passages
is that Enoch and Elijah were taken bodily to heaven.

St. Bridget said, based on a private revelation from the Virgin Mary,
that there are no human bodies in heaven except Jesus and Mary.

Neither Tradition nor the Magisterium has taught that there are
persons bodily in heaven other than Jesus and Mary.

I would interpret those passages as saying that Enoch and Elijah
were taken up into the heavens.

It is also possible that they were taken to a future time, described
in Revelation 11, when they prophecy against the Antichrist.

 

[Soler]

Thanks to you all! I would be of the opinion now that they were “in the anteroom of heaven”, “in an elevated state”, in “the heavens”, or something similar, perhaps in a place of particular honour in the Limbo of the Patriarchs. You’ve all been a great help.

—Soler.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

What did St. Paul mean when he spoke of the “Third heaven”?

 

[NotWorthy]

What did St. Paul mean when he spoke of the “Third heaven”?

This was part of the theology of the day.

The immediate sky was the “first heaven”.
The “ceiling” that enclosed the sky was the “second heaven”.
God existed above these two in the “third heaven”.

 

[jcrichton]

I think the key to understanding this is the Transfiguration.

They weren’t in heaven but existed in an elevated state. At the Transfiguration Elisha and Moses were up on the mountain. Though Peter acted as if Elisha and Moses were visitors it was in the light of Christ’s Transfiguration that the apostles were elevated and able to visit them on the mountain. I think this is the reason Jesus told Peter he didn’t know what he was saying. The cloud that enveloped them and caused confusion is the same cloud of presence that Moses first experienced

As St Thomas Aquinas wrote:
I answer that, Christ wished to be transfigured in order to show men His glory, and to arouse men to a desire of it, as stated above (Article 1). Now men are brought to the glory of eternal beatitude by Christ–not only those who lived after Him, but also those who preceded Him; therefore, when He was approaching His Passion, both “the multitude that followed” and that “which went before, cried saying: ‘Hosanna,’” as related Matthew 21:9, beseeching Him, as it were, to save them. Consequently it was fitting that witnesses should be present from among those who preceded Him–namely, Moses and Elias–and from those who followed after Him–namely, Peter, James, and John–that “in the mouth of two or three witnesses” this word might stand.

Now if they were in heaven they would not be waiting for salvation.

In the light of Christ’s Transfiguration Elisha and Moses were able to see the body that would be wounded so that their salvation would be complete and in that same light the apostles could see them with Jesus because they existed in an elevated state symbolized by the mountain. They were all experiencing a taste of what was to come.

So you are saying that when Scriptures tells us that Enoch and Elijah were taken into Heaven, the Scriptures were somehow deceiving us or not quite complete?

Rather than to suppose an altered state why not accept Scripture on its Word (holy men of God Inspired by the Holy Spirit); consider these passages:

10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. 13"I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, (St. John 17:10-14a)

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him. (1 St. John 2:27)

A simple reading of these two passages would determine:
a) ‘…boy, Jesus is really confused!’
b) ‘…hey, there’s no need for the Church or study of the Holy Scriptures… all that the Believers have to do is rely on the anointing that was received!’

…but it is not quite that simple, is it?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I don’t believe that the correct interpretation of those passages
is that Enoch and Elijah were taken bodily to heaven.

St. Bridget said, based on a private revelation from the Virgin Mary,
that there are no human bodies in heaven except Jesus and Mary.

Neither Tradition nor the Magisterium has taught that there are
persons bodily in heaven other than Jesus and Mary.

I would interpret those passages as saying that Enoch and Elijah
were taken up into the heavens.

It is also possible that they were taken to a future time, described
in Revelation 11, when they prophecy against the Antichrist.

…but were not Moses and Elijah in a transformed state when they appeared with Jesus?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Benadam]

quote=jcrichtonSo you are saying that when Scriptures tells us that Enoch and Elijah were taken into Heaven, the Scriptures were somehow deceiving us or not quite complete?

No, any construct of reality my mind accepts is founded on faith in the Scriptures. I just ask, how can this be?

I***24 And he walked with God, and was seen no more: because God took him. ***

The author didn’t say heaven because all he knew was what he wrote.

I know that in Jesus eternity entered time and history and He opened a doorway into a state of being that wasn’t experienced by any human being before.

Rather than to suppose an altered state why not accept Scripture on its Word (holy men of God Inspired by the Holy Spirit);

I think the language I’m using bothers you more than what it means.

Altered states of being can describe the rewards of the Sacramental life. A life of continual sanctification is a life that does not exist in a static state but is continually altered.

I use terms like ‘altered state’ because I believe an effective approach to exchanging ideas is to use language without a history that stigmatizes it or clouds it’s meaning.

…but it is not quite that simple, is it?

Maran atha!

Angel

it surely isn’t Angel.

Maran atha!

Marvin

 

[jcrichton]

No, any construct of reality my mind accepts is founded on faith in the Scriptures. I just ask, how can this be?

Hi, Marvin!

…fair enough; I have the temerity of noticing “red flags,” perhaps even when it’s only my perception…

I***24 And he walked with God, and was seen no more: because God took him. ***

The author didn’t say heaven because all he knew was what he wrote.

I understand your point… yet, there are certain factors that we must consider:
a) Enoch lived according to God’s Will,
b) God separated Him, physically, from the world,
c) Enoch must be with God (God resides in Heaven) or he is in some sort of limbo state (not dead, not alive, not transformed…) where he would await hundreds, if not thousands, of years till the Parusia.

…so why would Yahweh God reward Enoch’s fidelity with hundreds of years of nothing (if he is not sentient) or hundreds of years of solitude (if he is sentient, yet not in Heaven with God) or hundreds of years of torture (if he is sentient and in a human state where he is knowledgeable of man’s rebellious existence)?

I know that in Jesus eternity entered time and history and He opened a doorway into a state of being that wasn’t experienced by any human being before.

I think that we are treading similar paths… Jesus is eternal and in Him time and space Begin (Alpha) and End (Omega); this is why He is able to make the statements I quoted previously; it is also why He is able to promise the man crucified next to Him that on that very day he would be with Him in Paradise; this is also why St. Paul can reveal that our Salvation was in Jesus even before Creation and that we, those who Believe in Him, were made elect, again, even before Creation… so since Jesus is the Resurrection and Life, why would it be impossible for Yahweh God to separate (snatch) a person from the chronological order of events? If, as St. John the Baptist declared, God can metamorphose stones into humans, how could He not be able to transforme Enoch, Elijah, Moses into extraordinary beings (humans elevated into a similar existence as that of the Resurrected Christ)?

I think the language I’m using bothers you more than what it means.

Altered states of being can describe the rewards of the Sacramental life. A life of continual sanctification is a life that does not exist in a static state but is continually altered.

I use terms like ‘altered state’ because I believe an effective approach to exchanging ideas is to use language without a history that stigmatizes it or clouds it’s meaning.

…yes, language does play into this… my point was that we will experience an altered state ("…for we will be as He is…"), but the metamorphosis is not automatic (hollo-wood’s spirituality); our change is completely dependent upon the Holy Spirit’s Will–so it follows that God can exercise His Will even beyond our expectations (that which has been revealed through Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Traditions).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Eucharisted]

How could Enoch and Elijah be taken up bodily into heaven if Christ had not yet atoned for our sins? I thought that human beings first got into heaven after Christ’s suffering, during the Harrowing of Hell. If anyone could help, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

—Soler.

I wouldn’t mind hearing the Jewish understanding on Enoch and Elijah. I believe it would greatly help us better understand these two great prophets.

As for the Catholic understanding of their assumption and the effects of Christ’s mission:

The Holy Sacrifice of Jesus is eternal, so its effects expand time, reaching from the beginning to the end of the world and of history. The effects of the death of Jesus are eternal because Jesus is the God-Man, and as God, He is outside of time - He is yesterday, today, and tomorrow - so His work is not bound by time but is for all time: yesterday, today, and tomorrow (i.e., past, present, and future).

Hence, the gifts which our first parents received from God are the effects of Jesus’ death. The same goes for every grace which all men receive, and this also includes the assumption of Enoch and Elijah.

Now, one could argue: If this is the case, than why did our first parents fall from grace, instead of having enough grace to not fall? And why did Israel have to offer sacrifices if Jeuss’ death as the Lamb of God is eternal? Well, first off, this assumes one big mistake: God is in error. But God is never in error, for He is God. This isn’t about rationalizing the irrational, this is about the truth. Our first parents had the grace they needed to not sin, yet these graces - indeed, all graces - do not hinder free-will. Grace purifies the soul, making it more free to choose to do good, because this is what free-will is: the freedom to do good. So our first parents had great freedom to do good, but they chose to disgard God’s grace and sin. The same can be said of the angels. As for the animal sacrifices of Israel, they did nothing on their own, it was Christ’s Sacrifice that profited Israel; rather, the Lord ordered the animal sacrifices to signify and point to the death of Christ, the true Victim. Furthermore, the sacrifices point back to the time of the garden of Eden, when man ate animals to survive, and they point forward to the Eucharist which Jesus would institute, and they point even further to the consummation of creation, when all things will be subject to the Father, for the animals which Israel sacrificed had been used to give God glory, and man, as the steward of creation, must use everything to God’s glory, for God made everything for man and man for Himself.

 

[Benadam]

I wouldn’t mind hearing the Jewish understanding on Enoch and Elijah. I believe it would greatly help us better understand these two great prophets.

As for the Catholic understanding of their assumption and the effects of Christ’s mission:

The Holy Sacrifice of Jesus is eternal, so its effects expand time, reaching from the beginning to the end of the world and of history. The effects of the death of Jesus are eternal because Jesus is the God-Man, and as God, He is outside of time - He is yesterday, today, and tomorrow - so His work is not bound by time but is for all time: yesterday, today, and tomorrow (i.e., past, present, and future).

Hence, the gifts which our first parents received from God are the effects of Jesus’ death. The same goes for every grace which all men receive, and this also includes the assumption of Enoch and Elijah.

Now, one could argue: If this is the case, than why did our first parents fall from grace, instead of having enough grace to not fall? And why did Israel have to offer sacrifices if Jeuss’ death as the Lamb of God is eternal? Well, first off, this assumes one big mistake: God is in error. But God is never in error, for He is God. This isn’t about rationalizing the irrational, this is about the truth. Our first parents had the grace they needed to not sin, yet these graces - indeed, all graces - do not hinder free-will. Grace purifies the soul, making it more free to choose to do good, because this is what free-will is: the freedom to do good. So our first parents had great freedom to do good, but they chose to disgard God’s grace and sin. The same can be said of the angels. As for the animal sacrifices of Israel, they did nothing on their own, it was Christ’s Sacrifice that profited Israel; rather, the Lord ordered the animal sacrifices to signify and point to the death of Christ, the true Victim. Furthermore, the sacrifices point back to the time of the garden of Eden, when man ate animals to survive, and they point forward to the Eucharist which Jesus would institute, and they point even further to the consummation of creation, when all things will be subject to the Father, for the animals which Israel sacrificed had been used to give God glory, and man, as the steward of creation, must use everything to God’s glory, for God made everything for man and man for Himself.

Hello Eucharisted

At the moment of Jesus’ death and again when He rose the bible records that people were seen around Jerusalem who had risen from their graves.

This ,to me, supports your thinking. I’m not sure if the Church teaches otherwise, if so I haven’t come across it.

 

[Benadam]

Hi, Marvin!

…fair enough; I have the temerity of noticing “red flags,” perhaps even when it’s only my perception…

I understand your point… yet, there are certain factors that we must consider:
a) Enoch lived according to God’s Will,
b) God separated Him, physically, from the world,
c) Enoch must be with God (God resides in Heaven) or he is in some sort of limbo state (not dead, not alive, not transformed…) where he would await hundreds, if not thousands, of years till the Parusia.

Angel

Don’t worry my brother. I never adopt anything I think as true in absolute terms. I’ll drop something something I believe like a hot potato if I’m shown it violates the teaching of the Church or a teaching authority tells me to.

I am so glad I never said in my mind about something taught by the Church " this is impossible" I would have closed doors that remained open by thinking " I don’t believe this because I don’t see how it’s true. Well over alot of years truth of Catholic doctrin time and again has come to reason through as little faith as it takes to say " what the Church teaches isn’t impossible’.

Thanks for keeping me.
[/QUOTE]

 

[jcrichton]

I see God working within the order He established in the beginning. I do see God expanding man’s access and power in that order as necessities because of that choice. Because God chose to work within the order He established in the beginning Enoch’s life and action within the physical and invisible life of Israel was necessary as a means to guarantee that the People of God was able to overcome the wiles of the ancient matriarch

I too see God working within the order He established; but there is a clear difference between what they are and what has been revealed:

8 for my thoughts are not your thoughts and your ways are not my ways, declares Yahweh. 9 For the heavens are as high above earth as my ways are above your ways, my thoughts above your thoughts. 10 For, as the rain and the snow come down from the sky and do not return before having watered the earth, fertilising it and making it germinate to provide seed for the sower and food to eat, 11 so it is with the word that goes from my mouth: it will not return to me unfulfilled or before having carried out my good pleasure and having achieved what it was sent to do. (Isaiah 55:8-11)

…when we lose sight of this Truth we end up thinking that God is finite, or at least as finite as what has been revealed through the Word (Sacred Writing) and Teachings (Sacred Traditions).

I view these “windows” (Enoch, Melchizedek, Elijah, the Transfiguration…) as revelations within revelations; I never doubt or question the reason why God chose to bring them about or reveal them in such distict and seemingly perplexing way. I simply accept them.

Don’t worry my brother. I never adopt anything I think as true in absolute terms. I’ll drop something something I believe like a hot potato if I’m shown it violates the teaching of the Church or a teaching authority tells me to.

I am so glad I never said in my mind about something taught by the Church " this is impossible" I would have closed doors that remained open by thinking " I don’t believe this because I don’t see how it’s true. Well over alot of years truth of Catholic doctrin time and again has come to reason through as little faith as it takes to say " what the Church teaches isn’t impossible’.

We should all be as humble; search? yes; wonder? yes; but, as the Word states, there is only one Faith and the Church is the Pillar and Support of the Truth.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Jerry-Jet]

It’s OK for Catholics to believe what the bible says.

I don’t know for absolute certain exactly where God “took” Enoch.

If the bible says Elijah went to heaven on a firey chariot I believe the bible is telling the truth.

I really do believe that Enoch and Elijah will be the two witnesses against the anti-christ at the end of time.

 

[jcrichton]

It’s OK for Catholics to believe what the bible says.

…that’s what I’ve been taught by the Church!

I don’t know for absolute certain exactly where God “took” Enoch.

Reason dictates that since he was taken to be with God, he is in God’s Domain: Heaven!

If the bible says Elijah went to heaven on a firey chariot I believe the bible is telling the truth.

…which is just another way of saying: “Yahweh God says so!” It is revealed to us that holy men of God were befriended by the Holy Spirit and were given the inspiration to create the Sacred Writings.

I really do believe that Enoch and Elijah will be the two witnesses against the anti-christ at the end of time.

It is a possibility; yet, Scriptures are not abundantly clear as to the identity of these two witnesses… personally, I favor Moses and Elijah (as John the Baptist) as they are the prophets of the Old and New Testaments, respectively.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Crimson_Seraph]

I don’t believe that the correct interpretation of those passages
is that Enoch and Elijah were taken bodily to heaven.

St. Bridget said, based on a private revelation from the Virgin Mary,
that there are no human bodies in heaven except Jesus and Mary.

Neither Tradition nor the Magisterium has taught that there are
persons bodily in heaven other than Jesus and Mary.

I would interpret those passages as saying that Enoch and Elijah
were taken up into the heavens.

It is also possible that they were taken to a future time, described
in Revelation 11, when they prophecy against the Antichrist.

You’ll forgive me if I doubt someone had a private vision from Mary. Especially when “Mary” tries to interpret Scripture to people.

But no, Enoch and Elijah are they who are to come. They are the Two Witnesses. This is a very old interpretation from the Church Fathers, and I think it has merit to it. Hippolytus and Tertullian are two that did.

Just my two coppers.