Enoch, Elijah & Purgatory

[garysibio]

I was listening to a podcast of EWTN’s “Open Line” with Fr. Mitch Pacwa today. He talked about Purgatory and it started me thinking. Rev 21:27 says nothing unclean will ever enter Heaven. We do not believe that Enoch and Elijah were sinless but they entered Heaven without dying, much less by way of Purgatory. How can this happen? I’m confused.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

It is very possible that God desired keep Enoch and Elijah from experiencing death due to their immense faithfulness in service and obedience. However, avoiding death doesn’t preclude them from being cleansed of any sin by God.

 

[garysibio]

It is very possible that God desired keep Enoch and Elijah from experiencing death due to their immense faithfulness in service and obedience. However, avoiding death doesn’t preclude them from being cleansed of any sin by God.

Which leaves the question: They why Purgatory if God can opt to do so without it? Obviously God is sovereign and almighty. Your answer seems to make Purgatory unnecessary.

 

[SteveGC]

Which leaves the question: They why Purgatory if God can opt to do so without it? Obviously God is sovereign and almighty. Your answer seems to make Purgatory unnecessary.

Your original premise is that Enoch and Elijah were kept from Purgatory. Why do you think this must be true, given only that Enoch and Elijah skipped an earthly death?

If they were not sinless, as we presume, then some form of purgation was necessary before entrance into Heaven. That’s Purgatory, by definition.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

Which leaves the question: They why Purgatory if God can opt to do so without it? Obviously God is sovereign and almighty. Your answer seems to make Purgatory unnecessary.

Purgatory is a state not a place. It’s possible that Enoch and Elijah underwent the ‘cleaning fire’ of Purgatory when they translated to Heaven. Considering their general purity, I would imagine it would have been a short interval.

 

[JerryS]

Just because they were sinful men does not mean that they were not holy when taken by God. We believe the saints to be in heaven, but except for one they were not sinless.

If there are temporal punishments due from our sins, there are ways to satisfy them besides purgatory. So, there is no inconsistency if some people enter heaven right away. Our goal should be to be such people.

Besides, I don’t think Enoch and Eli’jah could have entered heaven right away. Heaven was not open until Christ opened it.

 

[svid2]

Just because they were sinful men does not mean that they were not holy when taken by God. We believe the saints to be in heaven, but except for one they were not sinless.

If there are temporal punishments due from our sins, there are ways to satisfy them besides purgatory. So, there is no inconsistency if some people enter heaven right away. Our goal should be to be such people.

Besides, I don’t think Enoch and Eli’jah could have entered heaven right away. Heaven was not open until Christ opened it.

Yes, exactly. They must have performed their penances.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Purgatory is only necessary if purification has not been accomplished during someone’s life on earth. For man such total purification in life may seem impossible, but for God all things are possible. Also remember how many people suffer greatly just before their death. I could easily imagine someone like St. Theresa of Avila, Bl. Teresa of Calcutta, or Bl. John Paul II suffering their final purification during their final infirm moments of life and going straight to heaven. Maybe not, but who knows?

Besides all this, I would point out that if I’m not mistaken Enoch and Elijah have sometimes historically been imagined in an earthly paradise rather than Heaven itself. Also as I recall the Roman Catechism (Catechism of Trent) teaches (or speculates) that the two will eventually die and be given back their bodies, so it would be possible to conceive of their death as being only postponed. I actually recall someone associated with EWTN once offering an idea that Enoch and Elijah are the Two Witnesses of the book of Revelation and will return to earth and be martyred. I greatly doubt this as John makes quite clear the connection between the two witnesses and Moses (who clearly died though he may have been resurrected early -cf the Epistle of Jude) and Elijah, but it shows some of the diversity of opinion with regard to Enoch and Elijah.

 

[Defender1]

I was listening to a podcast of EWTN’s “Open Line” with Fr. Mitch Pacwa today. He talked about Purgatory and it started me thinking. Rev 21:27 says nothing unclean will ever enter Heaven. We do not believe that Enoch and Elijah were sinless but they entered Heaven without dying, much less by way of Purgatory. How can this happen? I’m confused.

GOd took both of them up and they did not see death . God saw it fitting to take both of them while they were still alive on earth. There are special cases of course but for the most of us Rev 21:27 applies .They also never sinned in the mortal ways .

 

[garysibio]

Your original premise is that Enoch and Elijah were kept from Purgatory. Why do you think this must be true, given only that Enoch and Elijah skipped an earthly death?

If they were not sinless, as we presume, then some form of purgation was necessary before entrance into Heaven. That’s Purgatory, by definition.

It was an assumption on my part. I knew when I asked that we could only speculate. It might be that neither had to go through Purgatory. Not everyone does.

 

[garysibio]

Purgatory is a state not a place. It’s possible that Enoch and Elijah underwent the ‘cleaning fire’ of Purgatory when they translated to Heaven. Considering their general purity, I would imagine it would have been a short interval.

I realize it’s a state but it’s a state people generally go through after they die. Enoch and Elijah were still corporeal.

 

[garysibio]

Just because they were sinful men does not mean that they were not holy when taken by God. We believe the saints to be in heaven, but except for one they were not sinless.

If there are temporal punishments due from our sins, there are ways to satisfy them besides purgatory. So, there is no inconsistency if some people enter heaven right away. Our goal should be to be such people.

Besides, I don’t think Enoch and Eli’jah could have entered heaven right away. Heaven was not open until Christ opened it.

Good point about Heaven not being open until Jesus opened it. That brings up another question. Did those people who died before Jesus opened Heaven get purified when they died or after Heaven was opened.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

I realize it’s a state but it’s a state people generally go through after they die. Enoch and Elijah were still corporeal.

Albeit, generally people go to a Purgatory state after they die but that’s because virtually all people die and is not necessarily an essential condition of having their spirit cleansed of sin. There is an assumption being made spiritual that the cleansing a Purgatory state grants requires the corporeal death. Anyway, we are conjecturing that Enoch and Elijah retained corporeality during their taking up into Heaven and didn’t sublimate into spirit form before actual entry.

 

[garysibio]

Albeit, generally people go to a Purgatory state after they die but that’s because virtually all people die and is not necessarily an essential condition of having their spirit cleansed of sin. There is an assumption being made spiritual that the cleansing a Purgatory state grants requires the corporeal death. Anyway, we are conjecturing that Enoch and Elijah retained corporeality during their taking up into Heaven and didn’t sublimate into spirit form before actual entry.

There’s gotta be a big difference in going through the cleansing fires of Purgatory when your still sporting skin.

While you are correct in saying that the idea that Enoch and Elijah retained their corporeality, it would also be an assumption to say they didn’t. Both positions are arguing from silence.

One point in favor of their having maintained corporeality is the common, but not dogmatic, belief that they will be the two witnesses of Rev 11:1-13. If they are the two witnesses, they will need those bodies.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

There’s gotta be a big difference in going through the cleansing fires of Purgatory when your still sporting skin.

While you are correct in saying that the idea that Enoch and Elijah retained their corporeality, it would also be an assumption to say they didn’t. Both positions are arguing from silence.

One point in favor of their having maintained corporeality is the common, but not dogmatic, belief that they will be the two witnesses of Rev 11:1-13. If they are the two witnesses, they will need those bodies.

I do not maintain they retained their “skin” during cleansing. Anyway, such cleaning is a spiritual one and does not necessitate any physical harm to their corporeal nature, if they retained their bodies. Fire is simply a metaphor. As for them being two Revelation witnesses, there is nothing proscribing God in providing them with bodies if such is a requirement. Regardless, it’s not doctrinal they are the witnesses specified in Revelation.