Enoch & Elijah

  • Thread starter Thread starter Hunho
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
H

Hunho

Guest
In Genesis 5:24 we are told that “Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.” In Second Kings 2:11 we are told that “Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.” What happened to Enoch and why did it happen? How does it compare to what happened to Elijah? Why were these two men treated differently from all the other people in the Old Testament?
 
Some believe those two are the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3, so perhaps their fate was linked to this mission at the end of time.

According to St Hippolytus:
"By one week, therefore, he meant the last week which is to be at the end of the whole world of which week the two prophets Enoch and Elias will take up the half. For they will preach 1, 260 days clothed in sackcloth, proclaiming repentance to the people and to all the nations."On Christ and Antichrist
Click to expand...
 
my dad said to me once elijah is still alive but nobody know where he is but GOD dont know if it is true but i once wondered the answer was as well. great to finally find out.
 
They were both assumed into heaven.
This is evidence you can use to support the assumption of Mary, because if God assumed them into heaven, why not Mary as well?
 
Hunho said:
Why were these two men treated differently from all the other people in the Old Testament?
Click to expand...
The Biblical account of Enoch is not as detailed as the one for Elijah. With respects to Elijah, he is recognized as one of the great prophets of the Hebrew Bible because he was called to take a stand against the creeping paganism that took over Northern Israel of his day. It was during this era that Ahab, king of Northern Israel, married the Baal worshiping Jezebel – and allowed her to run the country. Having studying the lessons of the life of Elijah for many years now – I’ve named my first son in his honor – I’ve come to think of Elijah as representing taking a stand with God against the morphed paganism that is called secular humanism today.
 
What I do not understand is why ENOCH? We discern Elijah because the description of the actions that he will take in Revelation, but the Other actions described in revelation that the other prophet will take are indicative of Moses.

THis is the Protestant view, and I am a convert. Also, according to Jewish tradition Moses was assumed from mount Nebo where he died overlooking the promised land. This is also implied in the New testament where it speaks about Michael the Archangel quarreling with Satan over the body of moses (It’s either Jude or ii Peter I think).

I mean, if the acts taken by these prophets are clues to their characters, then We would have to assume Moses and Elijah. It wouldn’t be the first time this dynamic duo appeared together. Remember the Transfiguration.

Also, Moses and Elijah are Representative of the Law and Prophets, both of which foretold Christ and attest to his coming. How fitting that the “Law and the Prince of Prophets” Should reappear for that final advent of hissecond coming, where he will final fullfil all prophecy and testimony concerning himself.

What do you think?
 
kristanl said:
They were both assumed into heaven.
This is evidence you can use to support the assumption of Mary, because if God assumed them into heaven, why not Mary as well?
Click to expand...
Actually, Mary’s assumption is dogma as far as the Catholic Church is concerned. See Pope Pius XII’s MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS issued in “1950, on the first day of the month of November, on the Feast of All Saints”. (Happy 59th anniversary!) Nevertheless, you are right about the prior examples emphasizing that assumption is scriptural fact.
 
Leo_The_Great said:
What I do not understand is why ENOCH?
Click to expand...
That was the question I started with. I added Elijah simply because Elijah is the only other case of a person that scripture recounts as having been taken by God while he was still alive. Why Enoch? It is said twice that during his life “Enoch walked with God” (Genesis 5:22, 23). What does that phrase mean?
 
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.

Act 8:39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.

Act 8:40 But Philip was found at Azo’tus, and passing on he preached the gospel to all the towns till he came to Caesare’a.
Philip was taken up also.

Enoch walked with God. I believe this means that he contemplated God at all times…
 
Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven becuse they walked with god that is they were humble enough to let god guide them in all things. for awhile I was confused about how if jesus is the way thuth and life and jesus not having come down yey how could elijah be taken up to heaven? then I looked at the story in 1 and 2 kings about Elijah and realised somthing. Jesus being god has always existed when the word of the lord came to elijah he confessed his sins 1 kings 19:1-18. Even though Jesus had not yet been born of the virgin mary he heard the confession and elijah was taken up into heaven as a sign of what will happen to all belivers that we will be taken up as well one day.
 
geometer said:
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.

Act 8:39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.

Act 8:40 But Philip was found at Azo’tus, and passing on he preached the gospel to all the towns till he came to Caesare’a.
Philip was taken up also.

Enoch walked with God. I believe this means that he contemplated God at all times…
Click to expand...
Philip was supernaturally transported from one place to another on earth. What happened to Philip was not an assumption. He was not taken up alive and bodily into heaven, which is what happened to Enoch, Elijah and Mary.
 
Most think Elijah will be one of the witnesses since he did not die, and other suspect Enoch too since he didn’t die, one Church Father thinks the second one will be Jeremiah, which seems to have some support in Jewish tradition at the End times.

Victorinius for example ruled out Moses and Elisha since both died.
 
Part One:
If the Catholic Church be compared to an army drawn out in battle array (“Canticles 6:9”) we have reason to believe that Jesus Christ, it’s captain, would reserve the best soldiers to withstand the most terrible shock in the Great Day of Tribulation in (“End Times”).
But the people who know and serve the True and Living God shall be victorious in their Faith. God shall send teachers to instruct his people; they shall rush into the midst of fire and sword; they shall be made prisoners and their possessions will be confiscated; some of those teachers shall be cast into a fiery furnace, there to be purified, (“Daniel. 11:32, etc”) Not only the saints but also the angels will hasten to the standard of the Cross and aid the Church in this her Great Tribulation; and Saint Michael the Archangel shall rise and engage in furious combat against the enemy of the people of God (“Daniel 12:11), St. John represents Saint Michael fighting against the dragon (“Satan”) unchained, (“Apoc. 12:7”). Finally, God shall prepare a safe retreat for his faithful children in the desert (“Apoc. 12:14”) which means that God will not allow the demons, all powerful as they will be, to reveal to the emissaries of Antichrist the hiding places of the great number of Christians, who though faithful to God, yet have not the courage enough to confront the enemy or brave the dangers of so terrible a persecution. All this aid will certainly be greater and more abundant in this last struggle, though quite the same in all ages of the Church: God directs all things by His benign Providence, and He will send Elias and Enoch to aid and sustain His spouse in her last trying ordeal.
It is certain that neither Elias nor Enoch are dead. It is written; Enoch walked with God and disappeared. (“Gen. 5:22-24”). Enoch, according to the wise man, was pleasing to God, who placed him in paradise. (“Ecclesiasticus 44:18”). And St. Paul says Enoch was removed, that he might not see death. (“Heb. 11:5”). Scripture is still more explicit relative to Elias. He is said to have been walking in company with Eliseus us on the banks of the Jordan when he was carried off in a fiery chariot to heaven. (“4 Kings 2:11). Eccelsiasticus (“48:9”) and Machabees (“Book 1, 2:58”) allude to the same fact. All the Church Fathers are in perfect accord on this point and teach it as an apostolic tradition.

To deny that Elias and Enoch will return in person would be, according to Jesuit (“Doctor of the Church“1542-1621”) Saint Bellarmine and Catholic theologian Francisco Suárez “1548-1617”, if not heterodoxy, at least erroneous. Elias and Enoch’s coming is announced by Sacred Scriptures in four different places. The prophet (“Malachias 4:5”) says: “I will send you Elias the prophet before the great day of the Lord, and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to children and the heart of children to their fathers.” Again, in Ecclesiasticus 48:10, it is said that Elias was (“predestined in the judgments of times to appease the wrath of the God, to reconcile the heart of the father to the son, and to restore the tribes of Jacob.”) Finally, we read in the Gospel according to St. Matthew (“17:11”) “Elias indeed shall come and restore all things.
Relative to the return of Enoch, the Sacred Scriptures speak only once in a formal manner. Enoch pleased God and was translated into paradise, that he may come and give repentance to the nations. Ecclesiasticus (“44:16”). And although they are nominally specified in the Apocalypse, still it is plain to be seen that they are designated as the two prophets who will be adversaries of the Antichrist. (“Apoc. 11:3-12”). Elias and Enoch will come in person and not in spirit; such is the obvious meaning of the Sacred Scriptures and upheld by the holy Fathers of the Church. For why should God wrest them from common lot of mankind and give ordinary mission at the end of the world? And moreover, would it not be most useful in God’s design to mankind whose faith begins to waver to have a clear no-law, and of the law of grace, especially when that knowledge is obtained from men who bear witness to the time of Elias and Enoch in which they lived, to the fidelity and veracity of our God.
Some of the Fathers of the Church, as also some theologians, have thought that Moses, Jeremias, and St. John the Evangelist (“beloved disciple of Jesus”); would return on the earth before Our Lord’s Great Day of Tribulation in the World. Saint Hilary, Saint Augustine of Hippo, and Saint Ambrose all allude to this, though some theologians argue it being simple conjecture.
 
Part Two
In the Church’s infancy, St. Peter and St. Paul received, individually, a special mission, though not exclusively so; St. Peter was destined to evangelize the Jews, and St. Paul became the Apostle of the Gentiles. (“Galatians 1:16”). In the latter times of this world, two new Apostles will divide between them the work of evangelizing the people of this world. Enoch will preach to the Gentiles, whose faith and charity will stir up and revive (“Ecclesiasticus 44:16”). While Elias, Jew by birth, will be charged with the conversion of the Jews. (“Ecclesiasticus 44:10”).
Here we meet with the difficult task of reconciling two prophecies which are apparently in contradiction: Antichrist will be received by the Jews; and Elias charged with converting the Jews to Christianity. Still it becomes an easy task by making use of a distinction furnished by Sacred Scriptures. (“And at that time shall thy people be saved, everyone shall be found written in the book of life”) (“Dan. 12:1”) “And all who dwelled upon the earth adored him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb” (“Apoc. 13:8”) According to these texts, a portion of the Jews will remain obstinate and will adhere to Antichrist, but the greater part will hear the voice of Elias and will be converted. The final conversation of the Jews is spoken of in various places of the Bible. The prophet Osee speaks of it (“3:4-5”): (“For the children of Israel shall sit many days without a king and without a prince, and without sacrifice, and without altar, and without ephod, and without seraphim: and after this the children of Israel will return and shall seek the Lord their God and David their king; and they shall fear the Lord and His goodness in the last days”). Even Moses expresses the same prediction. (“After all the things aforesaid shall find them in the latter thou shalt return to the Lord thy God and shalt hear His voice.”) (“Deut. 4:30”) Saint Paul speaks in similar terms; (“Hath God cast away His people? (“Rom. 11:25-26”) And again St. Paul adds: (“That blindness in part has happened in Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles should come in, and so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written”) (“Rom. 11:25-26”). In light of language so clear and formal of the sacred text, Saint Augustine and Saint Gregory do not hesitate to affirm that this conversion of the Jews is a truth of divine faith.

In order for Elias and Enoch to discharge the duties of their mission with greater efficiency, the two patriarchs will be invested with the power of the Most High God. Saint John, speaking of them in the Apocalypse (“11:3-6”) says: (“I will give my power unto my two witnesses; and they will prophesy…clothed in sack-cloth. These are the two olive trees and two candlesticks that stand before the Lord of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire will come out of their mouths and shall devour theirs enemies; and if any man will hurt them, in this manner must he be slain. Elias and Enoch have the power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with plagues as often as they will.”)
In virtue of this power they will be able to console the Church and diminish the evils with which she will be afflicted in those last days of sorrow and desolation. Saint Peter and Saint Paul were not deterred from announcing the Gospel to pagan Rome, the mistress of idolatry. In the last days the two prophets Elias and Enoch will also come and attack with intrepidity the enemy of Christ. They will attack him at Jerusalem the center of the Antichrist’s empire. This assertion seems to be founded on the Apocalypse, (“11:8”), (“And their bodies shall lie in the street.”) By this passage they are represented as Elias and Enoch dying in the city of Jerusalem.
The mission of Elias and Enoch will last for 1260 days; that is to say, three years, five months, and fifteen days; in other words, about the length of the Antichrist’s reign. (“Apoc. 11:3”). The Antichrist and these two patriarchs will probably appear simultaneously. The Sacred Scripture, Tradition, in writings of the Saints and the Holy Fathers of the Church all concur in corroborating this opinion.
Having fulfilled their mission, the Beast will prevail over them. The career of these two holy apostles will be similar to that of Our Divine Savior, who during three years was inviolable: His enemies dispatched soldiers to take Him prisoner (Jn. 7:32”); they endeavored to stone Him to death (“Jn. 10:31”); and they brought Him to the brow of a hill whereon their city was built that they might cast Him down headlong. (“Luke 4:29”).
 
Part Three
But their courage failed them, and (“His passing through their midst went on His way.”) (“Luke 4:30”) But their came a time when He suffered Himself to fall into their hands. “Your hour and that of the powers of darkness has arrived.” (“Luke 22:53”). Elias and Enoch will be invulnerable during their 1260 days. Then God will suffer them to fall into the hands of the Antichrist that they may win the crown of martyrdom- their time for working miracles having ceased- while the Antichrist will still perform more striking wonders. And [when] they shall have given their testimony, (“The Beast that ascendeth out of the abyss shall make war with Elias and Enoch, and the Beast shall overcome them, and kill them. (“Apoc. 11:7”) A pious legend has it that they will be crucified like Our Divine Savior. Their holy bodies shall lie in the great city where their Master has been crucified. This is the city called mystically Sodom and Gomorrah. A great number of people from every tribe and nation will see the bodies of these martyrs during three days and a half. At this sight the people will rejoice and make merry and shall send each other presents because these two prophets are dead who tormented them that dwell upon the earth. (“Apoc. 11:8-10”)
Then the Antichrist will boast and glory in his victory. He will open his mouth in blasphemy against God, cursing His holy name, the tabernacle, and the Saints of heaven. (“Apoc. 13:4”). His glory will surpass that of all other divinities (“2 Thess. 2:4”), and his language shall be that of a boaster. (“Dan. 11:36”) The universal acclamations which he will receive on all sides will flatter his pride; all will exclaim, (“Who is it like unto the Beast, who can withstand him?”) (“Apoc. 13:4”).
Finally, prosperity shall attend all movements up to the time when the vengeance of God shall overtake the beast. (“Daniel 11:36”)
 
Part Four
According to the hypothesis (“which seems certain”) that the Antichrist will appear simultaneously on the scene with Elias and Enoch. The Antichrist will survive them only thirty days, which gives Tertullian occasion to say that the impious will perish by the blood of Elias and Enoch. In order to destroy the good effect which the ascension of the two martyrs produced in the hearts of men, the Antichrist will proclaim to the world his design of ascending to heaven.
With a view to carrying out of this project, he will pitch his tent on Mount Apadno, situated between the Caspian and Persian Sea’s where according to some writers Antiochus Epiphanes, figure of the Antichrist, perished and form which, according to others, Christ ascended into heaven, it being then called Mount Olivet. (“Dan. 11:48”). Saint Ambrose, Saint Jerome, and Saint Thomas Aquinas say that the Antichrist will ascend from the top of this mountain into the air, as did Simon Magus at Rome. But God shall overwhelm the Antichrist by the splendor of His glory and shall precipitate him to the earth by a simple puff of His breath. (“2 Thess. 2:8”) And when he shall fall, the earth will open and swallow up the beast and false prophet amidst flames of fire and sulphurous smoke while his emissaries shall perish by the sword of Him seated on the White Horse. (“Apoc. 19:11-21”) Thus shall vanish like smoke the power and glory of the Antichrist, to whom we may very appropriately apply these words of Holy Writ: (“I have seen the wicked highly exalted and lifted up like the cedars of Lebanon and I passed by, and lo he was not; and I sought him and his place was not found (“Psalm 36:35-36”) The end of the world will take place almost immediately after the death of the Antichrist. An interval of forty-five days, however, will be granted, in order to give many a chance to do penance. This assertion is probably founded on the following words of Daniel the prophet. (“Happy those who wait on the Lord and full of hope in His promises thus await Him 1335 days. (“Dan. 12:12”) According to the Fathers of the Church there is a question here of those who await the second coming of Our Savior during the last persecution, which will last 1290 days. (Dan. 12:11”) leaving the remainder forty-five days before the arrival of the Son of God.
It is probably during this interval that the accomplishment of the prophecy of Saint Paul shall be realized in the conversion of the Jews who were followers of the Antichrist.
 
The Book of Enoch was used by the early church fathers, but later fell into disuse except in the Ethiopian Orthodox church. I have read both Book of Enoch 1 and 2. Enoch is taken to heaven and learns the secrets of heaven. Revelations is very similar to Book of Enoch in many ways. Enoch lived 365 years and was taken to heaven after he instructed his sons.
 
As Enoch and Elijah were assumed directly to heaven and all created beings in heaven are Saints, why does the Catholic church not venerate Enoch and Elijah as Saints?
 
Corrich said:
As Enoch and Elijah were assumed directly to heaven and all created beings in heaven are Saints, why does the Catholic church not venerate Enoch and Elijah as Saints?
Click to expand...
My first assertion would be that both of them are not YET Martyrs.
Secondly; “no” Miracles at least since the First Advent of Jesus Our Savior born into this world has been accredited to either Elias or Enoch. That of course does not exclude the fact that they are already blessed holy men of God. Indeed the Old Testament gives wondrous credit to the upright deeds these two special men of God. If God should hold them in paradise for a great mission to instill Hope and Faith in Gods people during the final Great Tribulation; we should be ever thankful of Gods mercy. It has already been prophesied that Elias and Enoch will become martyrs and will indeed join in the Church’s greatest of Saints.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top