Enough, lets get things straight!

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Joseph, a humble, good God fearing man who has been waiting for his Savior to come. Joseph may have not known how his Savior was to come into the world but he knew he was coming and how He was to come he would treasure that avenue.

Now Joseph betrothed to Virgin Mary, found out that She was with Child, as we all know, Joseph was truly hurt by this and kept telling his choice people I did not touch Her, or in other words Joseph was saying that Child was not his. He planned to put Virgin Mary away for this, and again, as we all know Joseph had a dream. (Matthew 1: 20) below:

But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost.

Remember, Joseph, did not want anything to do with Virgin Mary anymore when he thought that it was by a man that she conceived. Now that Joseph knows the Truth, that his betrothed has conceived of the Holy Spirit, and not man. He would never touch her in a sexual way.

Joseph, again a humble, good God fearing man. Do you think such a man like Joseph would touch such a Vessel that truly belongs to the Holy Spirit, Mary’s True spouse? I won’t, would you?

Joseph, then understood his role as any TRUE Holy Man would regarding, this Holy Family! He understood his role and the many reasons why, 1. if the Jews thought that Virgin Mary conceived a Child unlawfully she could be stoned. 2. He understood that he shall also provide and protect this Holy Family, etc…

Ufamtobie
 
Agree. I can never understand people who think they would have to had sex and other children. Jospeh and Mary were raising the Son of God. The Holy Spirit had placed Him in her womb. I can’t imagine that they were anything but totally focused on Him.
 
aicirt said:
Agree. I can never understand people who think they would have to had sex and other children. Jospeh and Mary were raising the Son of God. The Holy Spirit had placed Him in her womb. I can’t imagine that they were anything but totally focused on Him.
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While I totally agree with you guys (and this was a BIG block for me when I was becoming catholic) I never thought about it that way before! I mean, think about it! You are charged with the duty of raising the SON OF GOD. Are you really going to have other children and divide your attention or devote yourself wholly to that task?! Wow!! You really made me think there! Awesome post! 😃
 
I never fully thought about Joseph’s role as father and protector and husband to this most Holy family before your post aicirt. The only thing I “knew” was that Joseph could not have had other children in his care, and most likely, no children of his own. This was mostly due because I’ve not seen mention of them in the Holy Bible.

Now, because of your post, I’m thinking this more deeply and it stands to reason that Joseph definitely didn’t have anyone else in his life but the Son of God Himself, and his young Wife, who in reality is the wife of the Holy Spirit. The Angel came to him in a dream and said so, and this righeous and holy man would certainly take his duty seriously.

God didn’t just pick these parents out of thin air. He chose Mary and prepared her, why then, would God not do the same for the man who would raise His precious son? Why would God choose someone who would defile this vessel? Why would He choose a man who had other children to worry about? That just wouldn’t make sense.
 
Thank you both for the kind words. :curtsey: Made my day!

The relationship of the Holy Family was profound. They were already living in heaven with the Son of God in their home.

I just never got how anyone could even think that they needed anything or anyone else.
 
aicirt said:
Thank you both for the kind words. :curtsey: Made my day!

The relationship of the Holy Family was profound. They were already living in heaven with the Son of God in their home.

I just never got how anyone could even think that they needed anything or anyone else.
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I’m glad to make your day, but that’s not why I said it. I guess I just never really thought about it that much before. Wow! You are totally right though - heaven on earth. They had everything that makes heaven, heaven, right there. Moreso than anyone else because they knew what they had. Wow. You really do have me thinking about this more. It takes my breath away to imagine!
 
Now you guys know that one non-Catholic such as I must stir the pot of this debate, considering the tone of the thread’s title…but I promise to be respectful.
ufamtobie said:
[snip] Do you think such a man like Joseph would touch such a Vessel that truly belongs to the Holy Spirit, Mary’s True spouse? I won’t, would you?
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Loboto-Me said:
[snip] Joseph definitely didn’t have anyone else in his life but the Son of God Himself, and his young Wife, who in reality is the wife of the Holy Spirit.
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The theme of this thread (so far) is that Mary was truly the Holy Spirit’s wife and not Joseph’s, thus (presumably) Joseph wouldn’t have consummated with her to bear more children.

…I’ll tell you now, this contradicts a LOT of things God said (or inspired) for married couples throughout the length of biblical history.
Malachi 2:14 - “Yet you say, ‘For what reason?’ Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.” Malachi 2:14 is an example that marriage is a recognized covenant in the sight of God.

Gen 1:28 - “Be fruitful and multiply.” This was one of the very first commandments, but you’re arguing God will break his own Word with Joseph and Mary?

Gen. 2:24 - “This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.” (also Matt. 19:5; Mark 10:7-8; Eph. 5:31). So sexual union consummates Holy Matrimony in the eyes of God…but Joseph isn’t allowed to?

Exodus 20:14 - “You shall not commit adultery.” Christ taught that adultery is committed through “act” as well as “thought”…So what you’re arguing is that Joseph could not even desire his own wife because she was really the Holy Spirit’s wife? Would God really be this cruel?

Romans 7:2 - “For example, when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. 3 So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries.” So either Joseph was forced to commit adultery (since God is still alive and the REAL husband), or God committed adultery (since Joseph was still alive and the Husband)? Either way, this would mean Christ was conceived through a sinful act.

Collossians 3:18 “Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting for those who belong to the Lord.” But not in the case of Joseph and Mary?

1 Corinthians 7:4 - “The wife gives authority over her body to her husband, and the husband gives authority over his body to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other of sexual relations, unless you both agree to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time so you can give yourselves more completely to prayer. Afterward, you should come together again so that Satan won’t be able to tempt you because of your lack of self-control.” But not in the case of Joseph and Mary?
But consider this passage (in the case of supporting generation between Mary & Joseph, while remaining true to a virgin birth):

Read Numbers 5:12-31 for the entire context of God’s commandment concerning faithfulness of a wife to a husband, specifically speaking on whether she is defiled (and what to do as the husband). Numbers 5:28 then says, “But if she has not defiled herself and is pure, then she will be unharmed (by holy altar water) and will still be able to have children.”

Specifically I want to point out the context; that being “defiled” [by another **man] meant that the woman was no longer “pure” for her husband, but a sinner and should no longer be with her husband.

But God is not a man; He is Spirit…so Mary’s conception by the Holy Spirit of God did not preclude her from having more children because she was still “pure” [not defiled by another **man] for her husband, Joseph…and in Holy Matrimony with her husband (which includes sexual union and children), she remained “pure” throughout her life in the sight of God.
 
Incredible. God Himself made sure that His Son would have a father on earth yet today we think it is perfectly normal for father’s to abandon their children thru various means. Or take in mind that Jesus had the best mother He could possible have but God still ensured that He would have a father. Thank you St. Joseph! 👍
 
I can accept that Tradition holds that Mary and Joseph did not have sexual intercourse, and that Jesus was Mary’s only child. I think that this is likely the case, as the historical testimony is inclined in that direction. However, what I have never been able to understand is the idea that Mary would have been somehow “defiled,” if she and Joseph had consummated their marriage.
 
The_Iambic_Pen said:
I can accept that Tradition holds that Mary and Joseph did not have sexual intercourse, and that Jesus was Mary’s only child. I think that this is likely the case, as the historical testimony is inclined in that direction. However, what I have never been able to understand is the idea that Mary would have been somehow “defiled,” if she and Joseph had consummated their marriage.
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She wouldn’t have been, as marital union is not sinful. But the fact that she mirrors the Arc of the Covenant (untouched) by remaining celibate speaks volumes. Mary realistically could have had other children and remained sinless. But she didn’t which actually brings more flavor of Old Testament worship into play. Think about it:

The Arc of the Covenant was:

Untouched - no man could touch it, lest he die. (why was this so important, what point was God making here?)

House of the Word of God - The first written word of God, the 10 commandments were in the Arc.

House of the Bread from Heaven - It is told that there is a jar of manna (bread from heaven, life giving bread) placed in the Arc of the Covenant.

Central to Hebrew Worship, but NOT the object of worship: Worship frequently involved the Arc as a central figure, but only because of the miracles it contained. The word of God, and the proof of God’s provision.

Think about it - the Arc contained the two biggest symbols of Christ: the word and the** bread of life**.

It was also vital to God that it remained untouched. Therefore, having Mary handled by a sanctified man (Jospeh, just as only certain people could even CARRY the arc, but could not directly touch it!) who never “touched” her, gives a perfect tie to the Arc. It is also an excellent examples to protestants that while Mary is a central figure in worship, she is NOT the object of Worship, Christ is. 😉 Everything, everything inthe Old Testament points to Christ. The Arc, a pretty big figure of OT Hebrew spirituality, is hardly an exception.
 
ufamtobie said:
Joseph, a humble, good God fearing man who has been waiting for his Savior to come. Joseph may have not known how his Savior was to come into the world but he knew he was coming and how He was to come he would treasure that avenue.

Now Joseph betrothed to Virgin Mary, found out that She was with Child, as we all know, Joseph was truly hurt by this and kept telling his choice people I did not touch Her, or in other words Joseph was saying that Child was not his. He planned to put Virgin Mary away for this, and again, as we all know Joseph had a dream. (Matthew 1: 20) below:

But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost.

Remember, Joseph, did not want anything to do with Virgin Mary anymore when he thought that it was by a man that she conceived. Now that Joseph knows the Truth, that his betrothed has conceived of the Holy Spirit, and not man. He would never touch her in a sexual way.

Joseph, again a humble, good God fearing man. Do you think such a man like Joseph would touch such a Vessel that truly belongs to the Holy Spirit, Mary’s True spouse? I won’t, would you?

Joseph, then understood his role as any TRUE Holy Man would regarding, this Holy Family! He understood his role and the many reasons why, 1. if the Jews thought that Virgin Mary conceived a Child unlawfully she could be stoned. 2. He understood that he shall also provide and protect this Holy Family, etc…

Ufamtobie
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Mary’s spouse was Joseph. The Bible says so. She was no one else’s “true spouse”
 
Whitacre_Girl said:
She wouldn’t have been, as marital union is not sinful. But the fact that she mirrors the Arc of the Covenant (untouched) by remaining celibate speaks volumes. Mary realistically could have had other children and remained sinless. But she didn’t which actually brings more flavor of Old Testament worship into play. Think about it:

The Arc of the Covenant was:

Untouched - no man could touch it, lest he die. (why was this so important, what point was God making here?)

House of the Word of God - The first written word of God, the 10 commandments were in the Arc.

House of the Bread from Heaven - It is told that there is a jar of manna (bread from heaven, life giving bread) placed in the Arc of the Covenant.

Central to Hebrew Worship, but NOT the object of worship: Worship frequently involved the Arc as a central figure, but only because of the miracles it contained. The word of God, and the proof of God’s provision.

Think about it - the Arc contained the two biggest symbols of Christ: the word and the** bread of life**.

It was also vital to God that it remained untouched. Therefore, having Mary handled by a sanctified man (Jospeh, just as only certain people could even CARRY the arc, but could not directly touch it!) who never “touched” her, gives a perfect tie to the Arc. It is also an excellent examples to protestants that while Mary is a central figure in worship, she is NOT the object of Worship, Christ is. 😉 Everything, everything inthe Old Testament points to Christ. The Arc, a pretty big figure of OT Hebrew spirituality, is hardly an exception.
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Agreed, the Arc and the Holy of Holies behaved the same way (in terms of being so holy that none could touch or enter them), BUT that was only when the Glory of YHWH was present in them (as the arc was the throne seat and the Holy of Holies was the throne room).

For example, during the 40 year trek through the wilderness, the Israelites were commanded to build a rolling tabernacle whenever they made camp. They would construct the Holy of Holies and sanctify it so that the Glory of YHWH could reside there…but once it was time to trek further, the Glory of YHWH left the area and the people could touch the Holy of Holies; deconstructing the tent and packing it away without fear of death because the Glory was no longer present.

It’s the same with the arc. The Arc wasn’t holy because it was a relic (possessing a bowl of manna, Aaron’s staff, and the Tablets); it was holy because the Glory of YHWH sat on it (as His throne seat) as they traveled. When Israel found the promised land and constructed the first temple, the Arc was placed into the Holy of Holies (throne room). But when Israel began to rebel against God, God left them; left his seat and throne room…and raiders (from babylon) were able to enter the temple without dying and loot it (Arc, gold & all). These men did not die because Glory of YHWH had already left.

Mary was indeed the Arc carrying the Glory of YHWH, and I would support that she was treated as such holiness during Christ’s gestation period…but then the Glory of YHWH left the arc; left Mary (through birth), now possessing his own Temple (as he confirms in John 2:19-21 - “destroy this temple and in three days…”).

After Christ’s birth Mary was no longer a vessel to be untouched. And if all of the evidence supports that Mary was one of the MOST obedient people in biblibal history (when it comes to God’s commands), then she would also be MOST obedient to The Marriage Covenant - recognized by God - since she’s now a wife…which requires a wife to be fruitful and multiply with her husband, be faithful to her husband, submit to her husband…Joseph, as he submits to God.

…and yet even when there’s biblical evidence that details siblings, we explain it away saying, “oh they were cousins”.
 
The_Iambic_Pen said:
I can accept that Tradition holds that Mary and Joseph did not have sexual intercourse, and that Jesus was Mary’s only child. I think that this is likely the case, as the historical testimony is inclined in that direction. However, what I have never been able to understand is the idea that Mary would have been somehow “defiled,” if she and Joseph had consummated their marriage.
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I agree. I’m very skeptical that they didn’t have regular marital relations. Otherwise they would have grown cold and distant.
 
Whitacre_Girl said:
She wouldn’t have been, as marital union is not sinful. But the fact that she mirrors the Arc of the Covenant (untouched) by remaining celibate speaks volumes. Mary realistically could have had other children and remained sinless. But she didn’t which actually brings more flavor of Old Testament worship into play. Think about it:

The Arc of the Covenant was:

Untouched - no man could touch it, lest he die. (why was this so important, what point was God making here?)

House of the Word of God - The first written word of God, the 10 commandments were in the Arc.

House of the Bread from Heaven - It is told that there is a jar of manna (bread from heaven, life giving bread) placed in the Arc of the Covenant.

Central to Hebrew Worship, but NOT the object of worship: Worship frequently involved the Arc as a central figure, but only because of the miracles it contained. The word of God, and the proof of God’s provision.

Think about it - the Arc contained the two biggest symbols of Christ: the word and the** bread of life**.

It was also vital to God that it remained untouched. Therefore, having Mary handled by a sanctified man (Jospeh, just as only certain people could even CARRY the arc, but could not directly touch it!) who never “touched” her, gives a perfect tie to the Arc. It is also an excellent examples to protestants that while Mary is a central figure in worship, she is NOT the object of Worship, Christ is. 😉 Everything, everything inthe Old Testament points to Christ. The Arc, a pretty big figure of OT Hebrew spirituality, is hardly an exception.
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Exactly! How is the different with the Jewish Temple,when Jesus said His Body is the New Temple and the Jews did not understand Him about raising it up in three days?

Likewise, it is worth noting that 1 Chronicles 15:14 records that the persons who bore the ark were to be sanctified. There would be no sense in sanctifying men who carried a box, and not sanctifying the womb (Mary) who carried God himself! After all, wisdom will not dwell “in a body under debt of sin” (Wis. 1:4 NAB).
 
Joshua27 said:
After Christ’s birth Mary was no longer a vessel to be untouched. And if all of the evidence supports that Mary was one of the MOST obedient people in biblibal history (when it comes to God’s commands), then she would also be MOST obedient to The Marriage Covenant - recognized by God - since she’s now a wife…which requires a wife to be fruitful and multiply with her husband, be faithful to her husband, submit to her husband…Joseph, as he submits to God.

…and yet even when there’s biblical evidence that details siblings, we explain it away saying, “oh they were cousins”.
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That’s a very simplistic way to attempt to dismiss a clear argument. This was not written in 2010. Cousins, uncles, nephews, were all called “brother”. The Jewish people were tribal, any kinsman from the tribe was a “brother”. Even close friends are called “brother” or “brethren” in the gospels, Acts, etc. Throughout the New Testament, I believe there are something like 80 people referred to as the brother of the Lord.

Read St. John’s account of the passion. Now, on the cross, Christ said to John “Behold, your mother” and John took her into his home, right? How odd this would have been…if Mary had other children, like you are boldly claiming. Mary had other children…yet she left them to go live with John? Doubtful.

It is important to use logical reasoning, and apply knowledge of the language, society, etc. when reading scripture. Hence, the Church’s teaching that while scripture is certainly infallible, all interpretations are definitely not; that’s why Christ left us a Church, for “In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.” 2 Peter 3:16

In Christ and Our Blessed Mother,
Frank
 
Read St. John’s account of the passion. Now, on the cross, Christ said to John “Behold, your mother” and John took her into his home, right? How odd this would have been…if Mary had other children, like you are boldly claiming. Mary had other children…yet she left them to go live with John? Doubtful.

Jesus’ brothers were unbelievers.
Joh 7:5 For even his brethren did not believe on him.

Why would he leave his mother in the care of an unbeliever? Besides, John was there and His brothers were not.
 
Matthew states that Jesus had brothers AND sisters… so Jesus was NOT an only child (in fact He was part of an extended family). Although I have heard speculated that these brothers and sisters were Joseph’s children from a previous marriage and that’s fine.

Joseph would NOT have abandoned these children after Jesus was born. That wouldn’t have been the actions of a loving man in the least. So no it wasn’t just Mary, Joseph and Jesus… it was Mary, Joseph, Jesus and other brothers and sisters.

Sorry if I’m understanding the point of this post but some of the comments of it just being the trio kind of made me go 😦 for those poor step brothers and sisters.
 
Darian said:
Read St. John’s account of the passion. Now, on the cross, Christ said to John “Behold, your mother” and John took her into his home, right? How odd this would have been…if Mary had other children, like you are boldly claiming. Mary had other children…yet she left them to go live with John? Doubtful.

Jesus’ brothers were unbelievers.
Joh 7:5 For even his brethren did not believe on him.

Why would he leave his mother in the care of an unbeliever? Besides, John was there and His brothers were not.
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And how did you extract from that verse it is referring to Jesus’ own blood brothers/sisters?

At Mass the priest will say: Pray BRETHREN that our sacrifice may be acceptable to the Lord.

Is everyone at the Mass related through direct blood ties?
 
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