Enough, lets get things straight!

[regression]

And when you pray **for **someone, who do you pray to?

Language usage changes over time. Ever heard the phrase “pray tell” or “pray come here”. You don’t hear that much any more, but it still means what it used to. Please tell, please come here. Same with the word gay. I used to mainly mean happy, and now it mainly means homosexual. But, if today I said I am gay, that could mean I am happy. How do you know? Ask me which how I am using the word.

So, you have asked, and we have told you, when we pray to Mary / the saints we are asking them to pray to God for us. If you still believe I am doing more than asking Mary / the saints to pray to Got for me, so be it. I know what I am doing and God knows what I am doing.

 

[Nicea325]

Language usage changes over time. Ever heard the phrase “pray tell” or “pray come here”. You don’t hear that much any more, but it still means what it used to. Please tell, please come here. Same with the word gay. I used to mainly mean happy, and now it mainly means homosexual. But, if today I said I am gay, that could mean I am happy. How do you know? Ask me which how I am using the word.

So, you have asked, and we have told you, when we pray to Mary / the saints we are asking them to pray to God for us. If you still believe I am doing more than asking Mary / the saints to pray to Got for me, so be it. I know what I am doing and God knows what I am doing.

And I would like to add,only God knows our hearts.God is concerned with our hearts,not so much what spews out of our mouths. And no, I am not saying talking or praying is meaningless to God.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Language usage changes over time. Ever heard the phrase “pray tell” or “pray come here”. You don’t hear that much any more, but it still means what it used to. Please tell, please come here. Same with the word gay. I used to mainly mean happy, and now it mainly means homosexual. But, if today I said I am gay, that could mean I am happy. How do you know? Ask me which how I am using the word.

So, you have asked, and we have told you, when we pray to Mary / the saints we are asking them to pray to God for us. If you still believe I am doing more than asking Mary / the saints to pray to Got for me, so be it. I know what I am doing and God knows what I am doing.

Yes, God does know what you are doing. He also knows our needs, so why not pray directly to God the Father; or if you prefer, Jesus the Son, who lives always to intercede for us. Why do you make it so complicated when it is so simple?

 

[Nicea325]

Yes, God does know what you are doing. He also knows our needs, so why not pray directly to God the Father; or if you prefer, Jesus the Son, who lives always to intercede for us. Why do you make it so complicated when it is so simple?

And who said asking for others to pray for us is complicated? If choose to pray directly to God,then that is your choice. If others use other avenues and God still receives them,then so be it! God is God and receives them all. Catholics are not told they cannot pray directly to God.

 

[regression]

Yes, God does know what you are doing. He also knows our needs, so why not pray directly to God the Father; or if you prefer, Jesus the Son, who lives always to intercede for us. Why do you make it so complicated when it is so simple?

Nicea325, you beat me to it. I do pray directly to God. However, I’m not going to turn down anyone else who will pray for me!

 

[benidict]

Sorry,Joshua. Those were a poor choice of words. My apologies. uch:

i dont know nicea. i think its a very good warning. not a poor choice of words in my book. your seeing the same thing i am. and we do need to warn him. Peace

 

[vera_dicere]

So…these phrases just beg the questions of since when is claiming that a married woman having sex with her husband some type “besmirching”, or some type of attack on her purity, or some type of “filthy smear campaign”.

Because to attack Mary is to offend her Son, Christ.

There is nothing wrong or impure about a woman having sexual relations with her husband, but as the above poster replied, her primary relationship was with God, and Joseph was her husband in legal term only.

Going over-the-top in language used here is not helping to advance the argument y’all wish to make.

I wanted to use the word “besmirch”. There’s nothing “over the top” about that. Seesh. I can’t help it if people are overly sensitive to the language I choose to use.

 

[Nicea325]

Nicea325, you beat me to it. I do pray directly to God. However, I’m not going to turn down anyone else who will pray for me!

 

[Nicea325]

i dont know nicea. i think its a very good warning. not a poor choice of words in my book. your seeing the same thing i am. and we do need to warn him. Peace

Yeah I guess maybe it was not to unjust or rude. I am simply warning Joshua to be careful.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Because to attack Mary is to offend her Son, Christ.

There is nothing wrong or impure about a woman having sexual relations with her husband, but as the above poster replied, her primary relationship was with God, and Joseph was her husband in legal term only.

I wanted to use the word “besmirch”. There’s nothing “over the top” about that. Seesh. I can’t help it if people are overly sensitive to the language I choose to use.

Nobody here is “attacking” Mary.

If you really believe that honest disagreement amounts to a “filthy smear campaign” then you are the one who is being overly sensitive to the point of paranoia. Sheesh.

You have absolutely no idea whether her Son is offended or not. You are not a prophet of God so you should stop acting as such. I tend to believe that her Son is not offended either way (since 1 Cor 13 says love is not provoked and does not take into account a wrong suffered…which btw should also apply when posting over the internet imho), but admittedly that is me

Anyway, this will be my last word on the subject and last word on this thread. I am sure you will find the need to get the last word in.

 

[JadeStarr]

Okay, now I’m confused, if the family of Jesus only had three members why are Catholics
encouraged to have so many children?

Wouldn’t the ideal family have only one child so the parents can focus all their attention on
him/her?

 

[regression]

Wouldn’t the ideal family have only one child so the parents can focus all their attention on
him/her?

I believe the point was their only child was the Son of God, which is a bit different than other families.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The words of one poster which are being repeated ad infinitum "filthy smear against Mary’ represent one poster’s response. . .not Catholic dogma.

We humans are imperfect. We use words which themselves are ‘imperfect’ when used to speak of God (who is infinite), even if the words themselves are as appropriate as they can be. And when they are not so appropriate, or when the subject is complex and the words are taken to refer only to ONE part of the complexity, it makes it even harder.

In speaking of Mary, her ‘purity’ is not limited to her not engaging in sexual relationships. For some reason, a lot of people equate purity with ONLY "sexlessness’. It isn’t. Purity refers to a being in a state of grace and not just with regard to one’s ‘sexual’ condition. Purity of thought, purity of speech, purity of the will. . .Mary is all of these.

To make an error about Mary violates that purity just as any error violates truth.

And because some (not all) people who discuss Mary do so in a hateful way (and I’m not saying that ANYBODY here HAS, but that in the course of CA and its forums there have been some who have over the years). . .some others who are very sensitive to that will ‘over-react’. But that is not to be considered as though “The Catholic Church” is gonna do a ‘stomp down’. . .anymore than we would think that Bob the Baptist who says, “the RCC is the Whore of Babylon” is NECESSARILY stating the opinion of all Baptists or the entire Baptist Church. Because we know some Baptists do NOT think of the RCC as any such thing. Just because some Baptist ‘extrapolated’ and made an error over what he was taught, or made a poor choice of words, we don’t jump down his throat and forever afterward make reference to “As we know, Baptists consider the RCC the Whore of Babylon”. . .

 

[rinnie]

Joseph, a humble, good God fearing man who has been waiting for his Savior to come. Joseph may have not known how his Savior was to come into the world but he knew he was coming and how He was to come he would treasure that avenue.

Now Joseph betrothed to Virgin Mary, found out that She was with Child, as we all know, Joseph was truly hurt by this and kept telling his choice people I did not touch Her, or in other words Joseph was saying that Child was not his. He planned to put Virgin Mary away for this, and again, as we all know Joseph had a dream. (Matthew 1: 20) below:

But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost.

Remember, Joseph, did not want anything to do with Virgin Mary anymore when he thought that it was by a man that she conceived. Now that Joseph knows the Truth, that his betrothed has conceived of the Holy Spirit, and not man. He would never touch her in a sexual way.

Joseph, again a humble, good God fearing man. Do you think such a man like Joseph would touch such a Vessel that truly belongs to the Holy Spirit, Mary’s True spouse? I won’t, would you?

Joseph, then understood his role as any TRUE Holy Man would regarding, this Holy Family! He understood his role and the many reasons why, 1. if the Jews thought that Virgin Mary conceived a Child unlawfully she could be stoned. 2. He understood that he shall also provide and protect this Holy Family, etc…

Ufamtobie

Here is something else I would like to add. Most people think that the reason Joseph did not want to marry the Blessed Mother was because she was with child.

But here is how it went down using our words today. When the Elders of the Church had to pick a Man they picked Joseph because he was a widow and a good man. Joseph said NO you do not want me I am OLD. This is a baby, I have kids older than her. I am ready to leave this world. I will not even be here to help her raise this child.

Now the HS comes to him and says Joseph its okay do Gods will. So he says Yes Lord. He would never say no to God, and would not have said no to the elders if not for his age.

Now put 2 and 2 together and you get 4 don"t you, Kind of explains why Joseph was not to be found when Jesus was dying on the cross. Why was he not there for his wife and son. Because Joseph was already dead.

 

[rinnie]

Okay, now I’m confused, if the family of Jesus only had three members why are Catholics
encouraged to have so many children?

Wouldn’t the ideal family have only one child so the parents can focus all their attention on
him/her?

Besides my previous post, God came into the world to free us from sin. And no the ideal family is to answer whatever God asks of that family. To be completely true to God the Way the Blessed Mother was. She did what God asked of her. Now we need to do what God asks of us. That is the ideal family.

 

[rinnie]

this will be my last day on CAF for awhile. when next we converse, i will be in a very hot place…NO NOT THAT ONE! look forward to this discussion later. this has been very enlightning. Peace to all of us.

Good one. benidict if you get a chance PM me.

 

[aicirt]

About Mary’s perpetual virginity. I would think this would have been discussed long ago by the Church fathers. John the Apostle was called by Christ to look after His Mother. John instructed Polycarp and he instructed Irenaeus. Didn’t they, including all the disciples of all the other Apostles, accept her as the Blessed Virgin Mary?

Even Luther accepted this. It was not until someone after Luther came along that this was challenged.

Knowing the propensity of humans for adulation and fame, is it out of the realm of possibilities to assume that a supposed blood brother or sister of Jesus would not have wanted to be acknowledged as such? Have we ever heard of anything like that? No.

Today, people speak of people as their “bro”. Doesn’t mean they’re related. Means they’re part of the person’s intimate circle. Ditto for “You go sister.”

 

[Nita]

Agree. I can never understand people who think they would have to had sex and other children. Jospeh and Mary were raising the Son of God. The Holy Spirit had placed Him in her womb. I can’t imagine that they were anything but totally focused on Him.

I just now came upon this thread, and realize it has taken off on some other tangents – but, your comment above aicirt, brought to mind a line from Frank Sheed’s book “To Know Christ Jesus” that I have loved and would like to share. It’s been years since I read the words; so I’m not sure they’re verbatim. (Gave the book away so can’t check on it.)
In speaking of Mary, Sheed commented:

“God in her mind; God in her heart; God crawling on the floor.”

 

[aicirt]

I just now came upon this thread, and realize it has taken off on some other tangents – but, your comment above aicirt, brought to mind a line from Frank Sheed’s book “To Know Christ Jesus” that I have loved and would like to share. It’s been years since I read the words; so I’m not sure they’re verbatim. (Gave the book away so can’t check on it.)
In speaking of Mary, Sheed commented:

“God in her mind; God in her heart; God crawling on the floor.”

Beautiful! Thanks for sharing.

 

[Joshua27]

First of all, where does Scripture or the early church teach that Mary HAD to have sexual relations with Joseph or else they were in grave error against God? Remember,we are talking about the SON OF GOD and the chosen woman to conceive Him. It is not just an ordinary family Joshua. Wake up and smell the coffee.

I sourced multiple passages here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6775928&postcount=8

To Joshua’s point that to be married is to be “one” with spouse] Okay…and? The scribes also had an issue when Jesus told them, the Son of Man also had power to forgive sins (Matt: 9-1-8) Oh but wait, Jesus was ONLY a man to them…how dare Jesus be above God. Hello! God can do whatever He chooses! He came to earth incarnated…WOW! Imagine that? God CAN do whatever he chooses.

As a point of fact; No, He can not do whatever. God can not do anything that would break is own established laws and word (which is the foundation of my entire argument) because His laws & word are His nature, and he can’t go against his nature (BTW this is why he can’t just “poof” Satan & evil away…Satan must be “proven” guilty with evidence and witnessess; a case must be built in heaven’s court of law). God is bound by his word.

Isaiah 55:11 - “So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.”

Isaiah 45:23 - “I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.”

John 17:17 - “Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.”

Psalm 12:6-7 - “The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.”

Psalm 100:5 “…his truth endureth to all generations”

God gave his word on what “Marriage” is; a REAL union (oneness). There is no changing this…not even by God. God can’t change his rules.

So if you (and others) believe that Mary is the spouse of God (the HS), then YOU (and others) are also saying Mary and God are one, by default…because there are no exceptions to the rule.

Christ also said in John 10:30, that "I and my Father are one", which we then use to draw the conclusion that there’s a Trinity. So IF Mary is (by default) one with God who is of the Trinity…? You see my point? The Trinity can’t work if Mary is God’s spouse, so Mary is NOT the spouse of God.

Wife? Wife? The RCC calls her the Mother of God,we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God “in the flesh” (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

Precisely why I DO NOT ACCEPT your biblical exegesis Joshua. You are out to be the Judge and corrector of divine revelation. You make yourself the Teacher and God the student. Finally, the ancient church and the RCC has never TAUGHT Mary is EQUAL with God.

What? Where do you come up with these ideas? Kindly show me the RCC doctrine saying Mary is MARRIED to God the Father and not Joseph?

This thread began with many suppporting the theme that Mary is the spouse of God (the HS). Even catholics who’ve replied have continued to address her as “spouse”. What is a “female spouse”, Nicea? What’s the term used for a “female spouse”? A female spouse is called a WIFE. IF you don’t believe Mary is the “spouse” of God (the HS) then you should’ve been helping me argue this point all along.

I am starting to place you in the same category with Jim Jones and David Koresh…

…I did read your later post where your conscience (God) later got to you and where you admitted that this was rude and unjust (at least to a degree), so I’ll ignore this.

On the contrary, the onus of proof is on you to PROVE the ancient church taught the Holy Quadity and not the Trinity.

I didn’t say this. You didn’t read what I typed yet again, Nicea. Once again you’re misreading what I wrote. But while some (like Ben) will apologize for drawing incorrect conclusions from misreading [even if he still doesn’t agree with me], I don’t believe you will do the same…either that or you’re purposely misreading my posts to discredit me with later viewers (or maybe avoiding my challenge to you). At this point it doesn’t matter.