Enough, lets get things straight!

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Rightlydivide said:
I just told you I believe that God can do all things. Yes, Mary conceived a baby when the Holy Spirit overshadowed her. Now tell me how this has anything to do with being a spouse…How was the Holy Spirit a spouse? In what way…yeah yeah, you are Catholic. Thats just great. Now answer.
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Well, Jesus is fully God and fully man–we agree on that, right?

Now I’m a woman. I can tell you as a woman, if I were engaged to be married and expected to have a ‘normal married life’ and then God told me that I was going to bear HIS CHILD. . .you can bet your BIPPY that I would consider myself as being not some ‘incubator’! I would consider that, unworthy as I am, somehow God was going to be united with me in conceiving a child–how is that anything OTHER than a spouse? If you cause a woman to conceive a child, then you are either a spouse or a seducer. Are you calling God a seducer?

And you can also bet that, if I conceived a child with God, I would consider myself, through being the mother of His child, as being bound ONLY TO HIM. NOT TO SOME OTHER MAN. EVER. Not even if I’d been engaged or betrothed to the other man. Why wouldn’t Mary feel this way? How am I supposed to ignore that GOD is the father of the child, that God conceived that child with Mary? God isn’t dead. He didn’t stop being Jesus’ Father, so why would He stop being her spouse? Jesus isn’t the product of ADULTERY. What exactly do you say then about God? That He didn’t REALLY conceive Jesus? That He did, but it wasn’t with ‘sex’ so it doesn’t COUNT? That baby is in Mary’s womb and God is the Father, so either she is in a legimate relationship with God as the honored mother of His child and Him as her spouse. . .or she’s a wronged, seduced woman and Joseph is a cuckold whose engaged bride-to-be was used and then dumped by God FIRST, or she is nothing but an 'incubator."

I don’t think that God ‘used’ Mary like a robot or incubator; why would He? What would be the point?

I don’t think that God acted like an old Roman god and ‘seduced’ Mary either.

What does that leave?

It leaves God who is all in all–Father to Mary (creator), Son of Mary (Redeemer) and Spirit to Mary (spouse and sanctifier).
 
ufamtobie said:
Rightlydivide,

I have read your profile, your religion is: Small church that follows the Bible.

did Jesus Christ ever say to His Apostles You are peter the rock on which I build my bible and the gates of hell will not prevail over it? No!

Following the Bible is good, but Jesus Christ did not leave the Bible for us to adhere to but the CHURCH and it is only through the Church who translates to us the truth regarding the bible.

Matt 16: 18 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 20 Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.

The Bible don’t even have the keys to the kingdom of Heaven the CHURCH DOES

When u say u belong to a church that follows the bible you are going about it in the wrong way. It is the Church you should follow and should adhere to it, for it has the keys to your salvation, again, the Bible is the WORD OF GOD and what better place to learn of the WORD of GOD than the One and Only Church founded on ROCK that holds the keys to bind or loose what ever!

The Catholic Church is that Church and it is a big Church and you will never be able to defeat it, though the devil try’s and you try, and both will never defeat it.
Ufamtobie
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I do not want to defeat it. Thats a chuckle. Now how is she a spouse please?
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Well, Jesus is fully God and fully man–we agree on that, right?

Now I’m a woman. I can tell you as a woman, if I were engaged to be married and expected to have a ‘normal married life’ and then God told me that I was going to bear HIS CHILD. . .you can bet your BIPPY that I would consider myself as being not some ‘incubator’! I would consider that, unworthy as I am, somehow God was going to be united with me in conceiving a child–how is that anything OTHER than a spouse? If you cause a woman to conceive a child, then you are either a spouse or a seducer. Are you calling God a seducer?

And you can also bet that, if I conceived a child with God, I would consider myself, through being the mother of His child, as being bound ONLY TO HIM. NOT TO SOME OTHER MAN. EVER. Not even if I’d been engaged or betrothed to the other man. Why wouldn’t Mary feel this way? How am I supposed to ignore that GOD is the father of the child, that God conceived that child with Mary? God isn’t dead. He didn’t stop being Jesus’ Father, so why would He stop being her spouse? Jesus isn’t the product of ADULTERY. What exactly do you say then about God? That He didn’t REALLY conceive Jesus? That He did, but it wasn’t with ‘sex’ so it doesn’t COUNT? That baby is in Mary’s womb and God is the Father, so either she is in a legimate relationship with God as the honored mother of His child and Him as her spouse. . .or she’s a wronged, seduced woman and Joseph is a cuckold whose engaged bride-to-be was used and then dumped by God FIRST, or she is nothing but an 'incubator."

I don’t think that God ‘used’ Mary like a robot or incubator; why would He? What would be the point?

I don’t think that God acted like an old Roman god and ‘seduced’ Mary either.

What does that leave?

It leaves God who is all in all–Father to Mary (creator), Son of Mary (Redeemer) and Spirit to Mary (spouse and sanctifier).
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What do you mean “used” her? Of course not. Thats horrible.
Of course He did not seduce her. What devil would say that???
It leaves Mary as the mother of Christ because the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived the Son of God. Ntohing about a spouse at all.
No I do not see how that makes her a spouse. What does a spouse mean???
What is this incubator talk? Thats horrible as well. Please be appropriate. I have said nothing of the sort and i do not tolerate inappropriate talk. I have explained my view.
 
Rightlydivide said:
It leaves Mary as the mother of Christ because the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived the Son of God. Ntohing about a spouse at all.
No I do not see how that makes her a spouse. What does a spouse mean???
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The other parent of one’s child(ren).
 
Rightlydivide said:
What do you mean “used” her? Of course not. Thats horrible.
Of course He did not seduce her. What devil would say that???
It leaves Mary as the mother of Christ because the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived the Son of God. Ntohing about a spouse at all.
No I do not see how that makes her a spouse. What does a spouse mean???
What is this incubator talk? Thats horrible as well. Please be appropriate. I have said nothing of the sort and i do not tolerate inappropriate talk. I have explained my view.
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I agree that the term is horrible. I SAID that I did not believe God seduced, used Mary, or that she was an incubator. And while I particularly said that this was not what I believed, there have been many threads and posts where nonCatholics said exactly that --that Mary was a ‘vessel’ just for ‘carrying’ Christ (excuse me, but that is an incubator’s function), and also that God ‘used’ her.

Now. . .you tell me then. . .If God was not a spouse to Mary, what was He?

He is Jesus’ father, correct? Mary is Jesus’ mother, correct?

What then is God’s relationship to Mary? How can He be the father to Jesus (God AND man) and not have a spousal relationship with Mary? The father of a child always has some kind of relationship to the mother of that child, doesn’t he?

Did God ‘divorce’ Mary? Did He cuckold Joseph? I don’t think so. . .but then, I believe that God is Mary’s Divine Spouse and that He who instituted marriage did not conceive His Son with a woman to whom He would then be ‘nothing’. . .
 
jmcrae said:
The other parent of one’s child(ren).
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No it does not. Thats not accurate at all. A spouse is someone you are married to. How were they married? Mary was married to Joseph. You cannot have two husbands.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
I agree that the term is horrible. I SAID that I did not believe God seduced, used Mary, or that she was an incubator. And while I particularly said that this was not what I believed, there have been many threads and posts where nonCatholics said exactly that --that Mary was a ‘vessel’ just for ‘carrying’ Christ (excuse me, but that is an incubator’s function), and also that God ‘used’ her.

Now. . .you tell me then. . .If God was not a spouse to Mary, what was He?

He is Jesus’ father, correct? Mary is Jesus’ mother, correct?

What then is God’s relationship to Mary? How can He be the father to Jesus (God AND man) and not have a spousal relationship with Mary? The father of a child always has some kind of relationship to the mother of that child, doesn’t he?

Did God ‘divorce’ Mary? Did He cuckold Joseph? I don’t think so. . .but then, I believe that God is Mary’s Divine Spouse and that He who instituted marriage did not conceive His Son with a woman to whom He would then be ‘nothing’. . .
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I can tell you exactly what the relationship was.
Mary found favor with God Luke 1:30
Her soul magnified God Luke 1:46
Above all He is her savior Luke 1:47
She is his maidservant Luke 1:48
That is the relationship. There is nothing about a spouse. That is not quite nothing, is it?
There is nothing about a spouse.
God never “married” Mary. She was married to Joseph.
 
Rightlydivide said:
I can tell you exactly what the relationship was.
Mary found favor with God Luke 1:30
Her soul magnified God Luke 1:46
Above all He is her savior Luke 1:47
She is his maidservant Luke 1:48
That is the relationship. There is nothing about a spouse. That is not quite nothing, is it?
There is nothing about a spouse.
God never “married” Mary. She was married to Joseph.
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Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit (one of the divine persons in the Holy Trinity) to be exact. Exodus 24 and Exodus 40 as well as 1 King 8 and Luke chapter 1 has some clues to this.

Let me end with: “God has done great things for me, (Lk 1:49).”

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit (one of the divine persons in the Holy Trinity) to be exact. Exodus 24 and Exodus 40 as well as 1 King 8 and Luke chapter 1 has some clues to this.

Let me end with: “God has done great things for me, (Lk 1:49).”

MJ
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Nope. I mean I have shown what scripture teaches. You could just as easily use those accurate descriptions and call it good. But you insist on spouse but cannot provide an even adequate defense yet. Hey dont get me wrong. I have disagreed with Catholics about many things but could “see” your perspective. This one is baffling. She is a “true” spouse. But where does that come from? She has a true spouse. Well they did not have relations you say. Okay, lets say I grant that. Mary and the Holy Spirit certainly did not either! So what is the difference between a “true” spouse and her for real the Bible says it spouse?
You see, there are no traditions about this being the case. Its not like people forgot to talk about it for 300 years. No one had thought of anything that far out. See its not far out because you are used to it. But I actually get why Islam thought what they did for so long about Christians because if you are going to go around reinventing the meaning of spouse…who can blame them?
 
Rightlydivide said:
Nope. I mean I have shown what scripture teaches. You could just as easily use those accurate descriptions and call it good. But you insist on spouse but cannot provide an even adequate defense yet. Hey dont get me wrong. I have disagreed with Catholics about many things but could “see” your perspective. This one is baffling. She is a “true” spouse. But where does that come from? She has a true spouse. Well they did not have relations you say. Okay, lets say I grant that. Mary and the Holy Spirit certainly did not either! So what is the difference between a “true” spouse and her for real the Bible says it spouse?
You see, there are no traditions about this being the case. Its not like people forgot to talk about it for 300 years. No one had thought of anything that far out. See its not far out because you are used to it. But I actually get why Islam thought what they did for so long about Christians because if you are going to go around reinventing the meaning of spouse…who can blame them?
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Do you accept that Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit?

MJ

PS. Let’s not talk about Islam. Keep to the topic. Thanks.
 
MartinJordan said:
Do you accept that Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit?

MJ

PS. Let’s not talk about Islam. Keep to the topic. Thanks.
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Of course. That term appears in scripture in other places. But sure he overshadows her.
 
Rightlydivide said:
Of course. That term appears in scripture in other places. But sure he overshadows her.
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Good. So, we are in agreement. Therefore you can say Catholics believe this without a single doubt. But what does overshadow mean to you in this reading?

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Good. So, we are in agreement. Therefore you can say Catholics believe this without a single doubt. But what does overshadow mean to you in this reading?

MJ
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What does ‘uncover the nakedness of’ mean to a modern person? Keep in mind that idioms are not always clear when translated, especially if you’re trying to be smug with it.

-Prophecy
 
MartinJordan said:
Good. So, we are in agreement. Therefore you can say Catholics believe this without a single doubt. But what does overshadow mean to you in this reading?

MJ
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It means that the Holy Spirit’s power causes this. It seems to the human mind to be impossible but it is not impossible with God.
 
Rightlydivide said:
It means that the Holy Spirit’s power causes this. It seems to the human mind to be impossible but it is not impossible with God.
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Yes, overshadow may mean that and it does but there’s more to this because, there is an important fact that should not be dismissed.

The fact that Mary said yes, to the Word. God doesn’t force a person to believe and force them to say yes, unless one allows. Catholics do not believe Mary has any power over the Holy Spirit or superior to it, or God or Jesus. She needs the power of the Holy Spirit to come down and make the conception take place.

So, let’s go back to Luke 1 where Elizabeth (guided by the Holy Spirit) says “Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"” NIV Luke 1: 45.

Mary allows with her Faith in God to accept this role in bringing forth the Savior. Like if a prophet is inspired/moved by the Holy Spirit and says yes, only then will prophecy will be made, if not moved by HS then no prophecy made. Right?

So Mary had total faith, said yes, and brought to reality God’s Word in her with the help of the Holy Spirit (consummating the relationship- like husband/wife or in other words Spouse). But let’s get it clear, not physical relationship in this case but a spiritual one.

MJ
 
So Mary had total faith, said yes, and brought to reality God’s Word in her with the help of the Holy Spirit (consummating the relationship- like husband/wife or in other words Spouse). But let’s get it clear, not physical relationship in this case but a spiritual one.
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!!
What does consummating mean to you??
Why would you use THAT word??
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consummation
 
What’s wrong with ‘consummating?’
con·sum·mate

/***v. ***ˈkɒnhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngsəˌmeɪt; ***adj. ***kənˈsʌmhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngɪt, ˈkɒnhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngsəhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngmɪt/ sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show Spelled *v. ***kon-suh-meyt; **adj. kuhhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn-suhm-it, kon-suh-mit] sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show IPA ***verb, ***-mat·ed, -mat·ing, ***adjective ***
***–verb (used with object) ***1. to bring to a state of perfection; fulfill.
  1. to complete (an arrangement, agreement, or the like) by a pledge or the signing of a contract: *The company consummated its deal to buy a smaller firm. *
  2. to complete (the union of a marriage) by the first marital sexual intercourse.
Sure, #3 refers to the physical union in marriage (intercourse) . . .but if you are ‘scandalized’ at the thought of God in a ‘physical union’, you should be even MORE scandalized that God became man.

Note: God and Mary had a deeply spiritual union. Just because it was not ‘physical’ does not make it any the less a union because it **was consummated; a child was born, the child is both Son of God and son of Mary. Not “son of God and son of SLAVE.” ** It is a mystery how God was able to become ‘incarnate’ (literally to take on human flesh as His own.) But if you are thinking, "How horrible, how scandalous to imagine GOD in a ‘union’ with Mary’. . .why are you not equally appalled at His ‘union’ with humanity in becoming man?

For all the insults tossed at Catholics about how we supposedly think that sex is dirty, your ‘recoil’ at the idea of God having any kind of ‘physical’ relationship (note once AGAIN I am not saying He had a physical relationship) with Mary certainly seems to indicate that you would think that God’s having ‘sex’ would be unthinkable. Why is that? Why would Him having a ‘physical’ union with MARY be unthinkable, but Him becoming a human being just like us is** not? And why is the idea of a spiritual union --a unique, once-in-a-lifetime event where a child is conceived who is Son of God and son of man–unthinkable as a marital relationship? **

**Finally, the Catholic (and Orthodox) understanding of this Christian teaching has been in place 2000 years. YOUR idea has been around less than 400 and is not even held by all Protestants, especially not the ‘first Reformers.’ Why should we accept your interpretation? Where was the Holy Spirit those first 1500 years anyway? On vacation? **
 
Tantum_ergo said:
What’s wrong with ‘consummating?’
con·sum·mate

/***v. ***ˈkɒnhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngsəˌmeɪt; ***adj. ***kənˈsʌmhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngɪt, ˈkɒnhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngsəhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngmɪt/ sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show Spelled *v. ***kon-suh-meyt; **adj. kuhhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn-suhm-it, kon-suh-mit] sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show IPA ***verb, ***-mat·ed, -mat·ing, ***adjective ***
***–verb (used with object) ***1. to bring to a state of perfection; fulfill.
  1. to complete (an arrangement, agreement, or the like) by a pledge or the signing of a contract: *The company consummated its deal to buy a smaller firm. *
  2. to complete (the union of a marriage) by the first marital sexual intercourse.
Sure, #3 refers to the physical union in marriage (intercourse) . . .but if you are ‘scandalized’ at the thought of God in a ‘physical union’, you should be even MORE scandalized that God became man.

Note: God and Mary had a deeply spiritual union. Just because it was not ‘physical’ does not make it any the less a union because it **was consummated; a child was born, the child is both Son of God and son of Mary. Not “son of God and son of SLAVE.” ** It is a mystery how God was able to become ‘incarnate’ (literally to take on human flesh as His own.) But if you are thinking, "How horrible, how scandalous to imagine GOD in a ‘union’ with Mary’. . .why are you not equally appalled at His ‘union’ with humanity in becoming man?

For all the insults tossed at Catholics about how we supposedly think that sex is dirty, your ‘recoil’ at the idea of God having any kind of ‘physical’ relationship (note once AGAIN I am not saying He had a physical relationship) with Mary certainly seems to indicate that you would think that God’s having ‘sex’ would be unthinkable. Why is that? Why would Him having a ‘physical’ union with MARY be unthinkable, but Him becoming a human being just like us is** not? And why is the idea of a spiritual union --a unique, once-in-a-lifetime event where a child is conceived who is Son of God and son of man–unthinkable as a marital relationship? **

**Finally, the Catholic (and Orthodox) understanding of this Christian teaching has been in place 2000 years. YOUR idea has been around less than 400 and is not even held by all Protestants, especially not the ‘first Reformers.’ Why should we accept your interpretation? Where was the Holy Spirit those first 1500 years anyway? On vacation? **
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Show me the first person to claim that Mary consummated her marriage with the Holy Spirit. I will be waiting please. I think it would need to be directly stated or at least strongly implied. Or something similiar to that teaching. In order for it to be the first 1500 years, you would need to show the first time it is asserted. Please do so. I will not assume 1500 years unless you prove that. That makes sense, doesn’t it?
Essentially you believe some form of spiritual union akin to what occurs at sex but on a spiritual level occured? I will ask further questions but I am trying to be concise.
 
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
 
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