Entertaining angels unawares- an atheist stumps me

[Hellisreal]

Hebrews 13:1-2 kinda covers it.

Or so I thought.

My friend, an “emotional athiest” stumped me.

She related a story to me, and I told her well- the upside is you may have been entertaining an angel unawares…

She replied:

OR I could have been, if I did believe- entertaining a Fallen Angel.

The Scripture leaves the door open doesnt it?

Maybe the “be careful” warning had a double message in it.

Everyone thinks it means good angels right?

I agreed, that this was how I always saw it anyway.

She smiled, or shall I say grinned. With a certain look that meant, so? What have you got to say?

I said why do you give me such a headache all the time?

So, any thoughts?

Could she be right?

I think she is right.

 

[Hellisreal]

I think she is right because we entertain evil when we sin, so why would it be odd to think we have entertained a fallen angel unawares?

I think I am cracking up now. I hope I am not, but I feel like she just got me to wonder what the heck else did I see like a pollyanna, and could have missed something being so naive.

She does give me headaches, but I love her.

Who agrees with her and why?

 

[De_Maria]

I think she is right because we entertain evil when we sin, so why would it be odd to think we have entertained a fallen angel unawares?

I think I am cracking up now. I hope I am not, but I feel like she just got me to wonder what the heck else did I see like a pollyanna, and could have missed something being so naive.

She does give me headaches, but I love her.

Who agrees with her and why?

Not enough information here to give an opinion.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I understand why your atheist friend would say what she did, but the context of the passage makes it plain that it’s angels of God who are “being entertained unaware.”

 

[LittleDeb]

The word ‘hospitality’ just by itself is enough to see she is mistaken in her interpretation. It is used in the context of the word ‘entertain’ and the word ‘angel’. She needs to know the definition of the word hospitable. The folks this passage is speaking to would know. By social custom one had to welcome strangers no matter who they were, but to be hospitable meant to also go out of your way to be kind. Strangers could stay, but you didn’t have to be nice to them. After all you were basically just a pit stop to them. The only way to “get rid” of an unwelcome guest was because of some impropriety the guest did after arrival. The word ‘angel’ means the person was good when he left (hence ‘entertained’ is past tense).

“Angel” is a title, like a job description. A “fallen angel” in the passage would have been called what he was, a demon. The phrase could read, ‘Do not neglect hospitality, for through it some have unknowingly entertained carpenters.’ Whom they entertained (welcomed) is not nearly as important as that they were in fact hospitable. But no, the focus is on the word ‘hospitality’ not the word ‘entertained’. Hospitality means to be kind. So is she saying the passage says, “Be kind to demons?”

 

[1ke]

No.

Angel is used when speaking of God’s messengers.

Demon is used when speaking of those beings who rebelled against God.

 

[Syele]

The Scriptures also say to test the spirits. it isn’t too hard to tell the difference.

 

[Hellisreal]

How can you test the spirits?

I am sorry, but I can think all day long the guy down the block is a demon, but how do I test that?

Okay, so basically the whole thing is clear in that the word demon would have been used. And the focus in not on entertaining.

I will see what she says to that.

She still has me wondering. Its not as if it would be impossible for a demon (fallen angel) to appear as a human. Right? And befriend you. Right?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The Scriptures also say to test the spirits. it isn’t too hard to tell the difference.

There is an old tradition that the devil has a cloven foot that he cannot hide. He will always show it in the course of his actions.

In practice this does not mean that he will literally show a cloven foot. There will always be something slightly wrong in his actions and suggestions, a red flag. When the situation feels wrong, stop and assess it against Church teaching, i.e. the Catechism.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

How can you test the spirits?

I am sorry, but I can think all day long the guy down the block is a demon, but how do I test that?

Okay, so basically the whole thing is clear in that the word demon would have been used. And the focus in not on entertaining.

I will see what she says to that.

She still has me wondering. Its not as if it would be impossible for a demon (fallen angel) to appear as a human. Right? And befriend you. Right?

Hey Hell

Heres a thought how she feel about Jesus? Hes usually a huge separator straight out of the gate. His Name curls a lot of hair of those who dont know Him.

Does she think He was a all around great guy? Some guy in the past? Didnt even exist??

Does she realised He is our Lord and Saviour the One who died on the cross for our sins, and the Son of God.

Its a good starting point If she doesnt or is wishy washy then you are being called to be held accountable for what you believe. Stand firm in your faith.

Or maybe shes genuine in her question, in which case she could be mixing it up with being temped. With that what did Jesus do when tempted. He said dont tempt your Lord your God. Back to the name.

And to note you are not a theologian, it is actually ok to say to people, you know what, I dont know that answer for you right now, but if you give me a bit I will get back to you with it.

Even doctors and lawyers have to research things sometimes, right?

TTFN

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

How can you test the spirits?

I am sorry, but I can think all day long the guy down the block is a demon, but how do I test that?

The guy down the block could be a Vulcan - we may think that Vulcans were invented by Gene Roddenberry, & he may have thought so: but their real existence on Vulcan could (for all that anyone knows) have been the reason he thought of them.​

This is why evidence is important: for unless there are solid reasons, backed by evidence of an appropriate kind, for thinking a man is a demon, or a Vulcan, or a six-headed man-eating doughnut from Sirius, there is no reason to bother with such ideas.

Okay, so basically the whole thing is clear in that the word demon would have been used. And the focus in not on entertaining.

I will see what she says to that.

She still has me wondering. Its not as if it would be impossible for a demon (fallen angel) to appear as a human. Right? And befriend you. Right?

It’s impossible ​

 

[Hellisreal]

Why is it impossible? For a demon to appear as a human?
I dont mind you telling me its impossible, I just want to know why.

So, I asked her what she meant, and her answer went something like this-

There are no demons, there are no angels. So, Gottle, she agrees its impossible for demons to be entertained, that was the point she was making. But, she was saying that by the same token its impossible that angels would visit us today. There are none. She feels that since there is a so called God and a so called Devil, then there is good and there is bad. There should be a counter to things, a balance she calls it. So if we can entertain angels, we should be able to be tested to chose good angel or demon. But, she seems to think that the demons are bound and trapped, can not come to us, so there is an artificial balance in the world, and this means the God we think is God, is non existant, because he is not trusting his good to win. he is a despot God (the christian God) therefore, there is likely no God.
She also thinks all the waiting for Jesus’ return is a wishful thinking thing.
The end is the beggining, and God is way too late in coming with the fresh start. So she thinks it does not matter what you believe in in life, and there is no sense of balance in our God. She doesnt even think one HAS to live by the golden rule, but that they should., and they will try to without any help from anyone to do that. But, when you die, that’s it. So, what you do here while, hopefully is worthy for your own peace of mind, and self respect is still basically futile anyway. You live, you die. No heaven, No hell. No God. No Demon. This life is unbalanced chaos, there is no perfection here, but there is a lot of imperfection here. and if there is a God, he’s a crackpot, despot to blame for it all. She thinks that the only reason some religions last, like ours is because of the strong rule base in it. If it were a less rigid variety of religion, it would have vanished long ago.
I am really not interested in how to approach her on the whole God is a crackpot thing, I am simply interested in her angel/demon ideas.
Any help on that is what I am looking for.

Kitty, thank you so much- but you dont want to know what she thinks about Jesus. Been there.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Why is it impossible? For a demon to appear as a human?
I dont mind you telling me its impossible, I just want to know why.

So, I asked her what she meant, and her answer went something like this-

There are no demons, there are no angels. So, Gottle, she agrees its impossible for demons to be entertained, that was the point she was making. But, she was saying that by the same token its impossible that angels would visit us today. There are none. She feels that since there is a so called God and a so called Devil, then there is good and there is bad. There should be a counter to things, a balance she calls it. So if we can entertain angels, we should be able to be tested to chose good angel or demon. But, she seems to think that the demons are bound and trapped, can not come to us, so there is an artificial balance in the world, and this means the God we think is God, is non existant, because he is not trusting his good to win. he is a despot God (the christian God) therefore, there is likely no God.
She also thinks all the waiting for Jesus’ return is a wishful thinking thing.
The end is the beggining, and God is way too late in coming with the fresh start. So she thinks it does not matter what you believe in in life, and there is no sense of balance in our God. She doesnt even think one HAS to live by the golden rule, but that they should., and they will try to without any help from anyone to do that. But, when you die, that’s it. So, what you do here while, hopefully is worthy for your own peace of mind, and self respect is still basically futile anyway. You live, you die. No heaven, No hell. No God. No Demon. This life is unbalanced chaos, there is no perfection here, but there is a lot of imperfection here. and if there is a God, he’s a crackpot, despot to blame for it all. She thinks that the only reason some religions last, like ours is because of the strong rule base in it. If it were a less rigid variety of religion, it would have vanished long ago.
I am really not interested in how to approach her on the whole God is a crackpot thing, I am simply interested in her angel/demon ideas.
Any help on that is what I am looking for.

Kitty, thank you so much- but you dont want to know what she thinks about Jesus. Been there.

Short answer: for God to let that happen would for Him to “lead us into temptation” - which God does not & cannot do, as the letter of James points out. Since such an evil would be so hard to detect, it would be a much greater evil than those we meet with through the corruption within us; it would be equivalent to inflicting a “guardian (!) demon” on us.​

Which is totally opposed to the reality & sincerity of God’s Love & of His Will that we should be saved. He would be putting us in very great danger, which we should be very ill-equipped to detect. Which is almost to make God do the work of the devil.

That’s why

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I like your answer Grottle!

ahh Hell yea I gots several friends like her, were so blessed

So see theres a good test, hates Jesus. Her spirit is tested. Like I said His Name curls hairs on people. Franklin Graham actually wrote a book called His Name on that subject.

When people dont want to acknowledge God but have a lot of complaints I think they have a seeking heart, but are so afraid of finding Him and the truth that they make elaborate justifications on everything else. (Not saying this is your friend) But this demon thing sounds like it. and for her to accept what Grottle has said she will have to admit God has our best interests at heart and it doesnt look promising at this point.

As for choosing demons or angels, we are faced daily with good and bad and it is our choice which to do. Im thinking we are the counter. If good or evil independentely decided how much of each to put out there, that leaves us out completely.

We are the ones that increase or decrease good or bad around us. We are responsible.

She may not want to hear that cause no one wants that. Shed probably rather think, the devil doesnt really exist and Its better just to blame God for bad things cause He created everything.

Thats why shes being difficult about the entertaining demons and angels. Think of it, shes saying she wants to entertain a angel, what kind of person would a angel be like? What kind of person if it could happen would a demon be like? Is she sure she really wants that? Trouble has a way with us as it is, why would you want to invite it.

Shes making a illogical arguement in order to blame God. And perhaps drag you down, shes probably not aware of that though, remember your sides already won.

 

[Hellisreal]

Short answer: for God to let that happen would for Him to “lead us into temptation” - which God does not & cannot do, as the letter of James points out. Since such an evil would be so hard to detect, it would be a much greater evil than those we meet with through the corruption within us; it would be equivalent to inflicting a “guardian (!) demon” on us.​

Which is totally opposed to the reality & sincerity of God’s Love & of His Will that we should be saved. He would be putting us in very great danger, which we should be very ill-equipped to detect. Which is almost to make God do the work of the devil.

That’s why

Her answer to your reply is this:

Then why did God sanction mass genocide in the OT to protect his people from Evil?
If he could sanction mass killings to protect his precious people, he could kill satan and crew, that are the “danger” to his people.

Why doesnt he?

She’s a tough one.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Her answer to your reply is this:

Then why did God sanction mass genocide in the OT to protect his people from Evil?
If he could sanction mass killings to protect his precious people, he could kill satan and crew, that are the “danger” to his people.

Why doesnt he?

She’s a tough one.

Well in this case she seems to be contradicting herself. Gottle of Geer said that God would not permit us to entertain demons unaware because He wants to protect us. Your friend asked why God doesn’t protect us if He can, she just changed the means she wants Him to protect us by.

Whether God simply prohibits Satan from requesting hospitality from us or He actually destroys Satan, the end result is the same: entertaining demons unaware isn’t something that God is going to permit us to do.

And so I don’t really see the point of her argument, other than to throw out the emotionally charged accusation that God ordered Israel to kill of entire races. What she said doesn’t support her original point.

So far as God killing Satan is concerend:

Human beings and angels are immortal - they will not be destroyed. That is, they will always exist. Killing is just a way of ending one’s earthly life; it doesn’t do anything to a person’s immortal soul. Anytime God did order the killing of someone, that was just their earthly life. What happened to their soul was handled in perfect justice. Thus, if some person in an enemy camp was not guilty of any sin and lived as well as she could according to the Grace she had, that person would go to Heaven after having been killed. In other words, God sorted all the fates of anybody that was killed out, fairly and justly.

But Satan doesn’t have an earthly life to end. God can’t “kill” him, because he never had the thing - an earthly life - that killing takes away. God can, however, control what Satan does, and He does this, as Gottle of Geer said. He protects us from Satan, not allowing Satan to do most of the things to us he might like to. the only things Satan is allowed to do are those that God permits him to. When Satan is able to tempt us in various ways, it is only because God - for some reason we will not understand entirely in this life - allows him to. Otherwise, his hands are tied. Gottle of Geer was explaining that coming to us as though in need of hospitality is not one of the things Satan is permitted to do.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Her answer to your reply is this:

Then why did God sanction mass genocide in the OT to protect his people from Evil?
If he could sanction mass killings to protect his precious people, he could kill satan and crew, that are the “danger” to his people.

Why doesnt he?

She’s a tough one.

Why doesnt He kill satan? Hes going to.

Why didnt He kill satan back then, cause it wasnt time yet.

Why did He create satan in the first place, He created a beautiful angel who through free will chose to go against God.

Why free will? because you cannot have true love if its forced, so you require free will.

Does God care? yes thus why He sent His Son Jesus to make things right again.

Some thoughts, just keep in mind shes going to want to pin it on God each time.

And if shes a regular kind of atheist dont bother too much with scripture, unless she asks for it.

Does this help? You should pick up the Case for Faith by Lee Strobel its a good overview. He even interviews Peter Kreeft.

I will say a prayer for you

 

[Hellisreal]

Thank you all very much.

She killed herself yesterday. Stragled herself in her basement.

I feel like *&^ now.

I failed her. And I really tried.

Lord, be merciful and please know she did have love in her soul.

Christ, have mercy

 

[LittleDeb]

Thank you all very much.

She killed herself yesterday. Stragled herself in her basement.

I feel like *&^ now.

I failed her. And I really tried.

Lord, be merciful and please know she did have love in her soul.

Christ, have mercy

Oh my dear!

She was obviously deeply troubled, more deeply than any one person could help her. You didn’t fail her. You gave her a glimpse of heaven. Pray that she can rest in Jesus’ arms now. He knows our hearts. He is completely just and completely merciful.

May you find peace during this trying time. I’ll offer up prayers for you and for the repose of your friend’s soul right now.

God bless you!

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

I would like to mention here that there is no concept of a fallen angel in Quran/Islam. All angels do what GodAllahYHWH commands them to do.

The Holy Quran : Chapter 66: Al-Tahrim
[66:7] O ye who believe! Save yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is men and stones over which are appointed angels, stern and severe, who disobey not Allah in what He commands them and do as they are commanded.
Unquote

Thanks