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Nine_Two
Guest
To attack someone is to persecute them.Well I said “attacked” not “persecuted.”
EO convert from Protestantism and uncomfortable with Eastern rite
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Hesychios
Guest
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FabiusMaximus
Guest
“Anatolian…” I’m assuming Turkey?First off, where are you living, actually?
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bpbasilphx
Guest
What is it you find confusion about Orthodoxy and uncomforatable about the Byzantine LIturgy?
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Hesychios
Guest
For me, 14 hours by air (and then also probably a long drive
).When I was a Latin Catholic in Chicago, I had longed for an Anglican Use parish, because of the more dignified worship. But alas, none in the region.
After I became Orthodox I thought that a western rite parish would be a nice option for me (however, the dignity of Anglican style worship does not ‘stand out’ as much in the company of other Orthodox ritual traditions, which are also very dignified). Again however, none in the region. I would certainly like to visit one.
Naturally, the Latin catholic church had it’s origins in Holy Orthodoxy and the western liturgical praxis is … overall … perfectly acceptable in the context of the Orthodox faith. There might be some minor elements and devotional practices which don’t ‘fit’ very well, because they derive from ‘newthink’ in the Latin Catholic world, but that is not to say the liturgy itself is unacceptable. Those who deride it have their heads in a dark place.
My only issue with a western ‘rite’ as such, is that I don’t believe it (liturgical rite) should be a condition upon which one bases one’s conversion. If one is convinced of Orthodoxy, one goes to that church (whatever the ritual practices). If one is convinced of Papal Catholicism, one goes to that church (whatever it’s ritual practices).
And we should not be engaged in rebuilding an Orthodox west, there is already a western church which just needs to reconcile with it’s roots. That is were the efforts should be placed.
If there are congregations here or there which just cannot wait for the day, and need a safe haven under an Orthodox bishop they should not be refused. This is why the western rite Orthodoxy exists in the few places it does.
I realize that language can be an obstacle. That is a universal problem that needs to be addressed (and has been many times before, such as in the work of Ss Cyril and Methodios). It is not, as such, a liturgical ‘rite’ issue, but a question of outreach and mission that seriously needs addressing by all churches.
Those parish communities which do not seriously consider the negative impact of their own ethnic chauvinism will share the responsibility before God for those whose faith is crushed for lack of sustenance.
We have to remember that it is not, after all, our church. It is God’s church.
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Hesychios
Guest
That was my first thought.
But the English of the original poster is very natural, and any Latin Catholic churches in Turkey might use Greek, Turkish, Armenian, Kurdish or Arabic (depending on the province), if not Latin.
Perhaps there is an English/Australian/American ex-pat community large enough to support an English language Mass in Greece or Turkey. But it seems like this person could be in the USA.
This site, Orthodoxy in America, can possibly help people find a parish or mission in North America if they need it.
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Nine_Two
Guest
An excellent post that gets to the point of the issue exactly.For me, 14 hours by air (and then also probably a long drive
When I was a Latin Catholic in Chicago, I had longed for an Anglican Use parish, because of the more dignified worship. But alas, none in the region.
After I became Orthodox I thought that a western rite parish would be a nice option for me (however, the dignity of Anglican style worship does not ‘stand out’ as much in the company of other Orthodox ritual traditions, which are also very dignified). Again however, none in the region. I would certainly like to visit one.
Naturally, the Latin catholic church had it’s origins in Holy Orthodoxy and the western liturgical praxis is … overall … perfectly acceptable in the context of the Orthodox faith. There might be some minor elements and devotional practices which don’t ‘fit’ very well, because they derive from ‘newthink’ in the Latin Catholic world, but that is not to say the liturgy itself is unacceptable. Those who deride it have their heads in a dark place.
My only issue with a western ‘rite’ as such, is that I don’t believe it (liturgical rite) should be a condition upon which one bases one’s conversion. If one is convinced of Orthodoxy, one goes to that church (whatever the ritual practices). If one is convinced of Papal Catholicism, one goes to that church (whatever it’s ritual practices).
And we should not be engaged in rebuilding an Orthodox west, there is already a western church which just needs to reconcile with it’s roots. That is were the efforts should be placed.
If there are congregations here or there which just cannot wait for the day, and need a safe haven under an Orthodox bishop they should not be refused. This is why the western rite Orthodoxy exists in the few places it does.
I realize that language can be an obstacle. That is a universal problem that needs to be addressed (and has been many times before, such as in the work of Ss Cyril and Methodios). It is not, as such, a liturgical ‘rite’ issue, but a question of outreach and mission that seriously needs addressing by all churches.
Those parish communities which do not seriously consider the negative impact of their own ethnic chauvinism will share the responsibility before God for those whose faith is crushed for lack of sustenance.
We have to remember that it is not, after all, our church. It is God’s church.
There aren’t many Western Rite Parishes because they are not something native to us, the equivalent is if the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church set up an Eastern liturgical style. We do it so that some might feel more comfortable. It isn’t like some Western Churches joined the Orthodox and have been slowly assimilated in (although that did happen, they were already using the Eastern Rite before they joined, and fully planned on being assimilated into the Church).
Also to clarify, when I said I’d like to go to a Western Rite parish, I did mean visit. I’m quite happy with the Byzantine Style liturgy I currently participate in.
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Mickey
Guest
Oh Dear brother Mark,
You know very well that St Paul is not saying that ordained men should not be married before ordination (and that they must remain celibate). I am surprised by your response. Perhaps you are very influenced by the Latin discipline.
I think that it may be you with the hubris issue.
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Mickey
Guest
Yes!.
Same here. I have had the pleasure to know excellent married and celibate priests. The Holy Orthodox Church has both. Sadly, there are those here who enjoy to denigrate the married priesthood (usually by quoting St Paul) because they are attached to a church which has a celibate discipline.
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searn77
Guest
Just wondering, where in the USA is there a western rite monastery? I know there used to be 2 on the east coast. But the one became a press for western rite Orthodox (St. Luke’s Priory Press) and the other moved to Canada as Christ the Savior Monastery.
By the way, there is a bi-ritual ROCOR parish in Oklahoma.
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mardukm
Guest
Dear brother Mickey,
Blessings,
Marduk
It would be appreciated if you don’t impose intentions in what I write that is not there to begin with. I did not mention the issue of celibacy at all. Please stop looking for division where there is none.You know very well that St Paul is not saying that ordained men should not be married before ordination (and that they must remain celibate). I am surprised by your response. Perhaps you are very influenced by the Latin discipline.
I think that it may be you with the hubris issue.
Blessings,
Marduk
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Holly3278
Guest
Why did you join Orthodoxy if you felt this way? Just curious.
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Mickey
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Then I would recommend that you post with more clarity so as to construe the proper intention of your thought process.
I was going to say the same thing to you.
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DavidKays
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Thank you Fr.Mark for bringing up your post on other Western Rite congregations. I did not know of other faiths that decided to come into the Anthiochian Church so I am glad you brought it up. It is good that the local Catholic Bishops may now make important decisions when a married Anglican priest joins the Catholic Church. That will mean the priest may have the opportunity to minister hopefully to a congregation of his own. The Anglican priest who became Catholic on the Island ( P.E.I. ) has been charged by his Bishop only to be an assistant to a parish. I thought this happens all over the Catholic world that married priests can only be assistants so that is why I suggested that mayby they choose to be Orthodox so that they can have their own parish. With the Holy Father permitting more, the time may come when former Anglican priests can be in charge of their own Catholic parishes. I grew up High Church in an Anglo-Catholic parish so my upbringing was more Catholic than Anglican. About 100 years ago about 15 Orthodox families came to the Island and attended the High Church of England. In about 20 years they nearly doubled the parish. 15 years ago about 17 families that attended this High Church of England started an Orthodox mission and now there is an established Orthodox Church with almost 50 familes and growing steadily every year. We have the youngest parish in the Archdiocese. It is good to hear from an Anglican Priest as I have lived with them and prayed with them for a number of years. Thanks again for your post! God Bless!
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