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Peter_J
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Hi Gicutzu.
Granted I’ve never been in your shoes (I’m cradle Catholic) but fwiw, I’m pretty sure that this ^^ is how I would do it too: first deciding to become catholic (in the general sense) and then deciding which specific church to join.
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Gicutzu
Guest
I was harsh in my characterization of the Eastern Orthodox Church and faithful and Byzantine chant in my last post in this thread, and I apologize.
After doing some more reading yesterday and today, I realized that I am still stuck, just like the OP, in the same situation of trying to decide between Catholic and Orthodox.
I have discovered a book on the history of the Greek Catholic Church in my country, and I want to read it because it might help me along. I will also try to find out more about the richness of both the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches.
Until I find an answer for myself, I will refrain from posting here and giving advice to others.
I apologize once again if I have offended anyone: all Apostolic Churches have beautiful services and a beautiful Tradition, and I yearn for the communion of all of them and for the healing of all schisms.
Pray for me.
After doing some more reading yesterday and today, I realized that I am still stuck, just like the OP, in the same situation of trying to decide between Catholic and Orthodox.
I have discovered a book on the history of the Greek Catholic Church in my country, and I want to read it because it might help me along. I will also try to find out more about the richness of both the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches.
Until I find an answer for myself, I will refrain from posting here and giving advice to others.
I apologize once again if I have offended anyone: all Apostolic Churches have beautiful services and a beautiful Tradition, and I yearn for the communion of all of them and for the healing of all schisms.
Pray for me.
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Peter_J
Guest
I wouldn’t worry too much, it’s a difficult choice to make. (Of course, since I’m Catholic you’d probably expect me to say “It’s easy! You should be in communion with Rome.”
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pocohombre
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andrewstx
Guest
I really don’t think what you said was so bad. To anyone familiar with Western style music, Byzantine chant is unfamiliar and getting used to. It took me a while to get comfortable with Eastern Christian music too.
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dzheremi
Guest
Heck, I’ve never particularly cared for Byzantine chant myself, at least not in comparison to other chant forms. Liking a church’s traditional form of chant needn’t really factor in to joining it or not, assuming you’re converting for the right reasons (theology, not externals). I have likewise met other converts to the Coptic Orthodox Church who don’t care for Coptic chant. I’m sure it’s easy to dislike, as there’s really no point of reference for it even for those who are used to Western chant in either its Latin or Byzantine forms.
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josie_L
Guest
Well you can have both in the Catholic Church, i.e., embrace all universal aspects of her catholicity, i.e., the Latin, the Byzantine, Maronite. . .
And I will pray for you. :byzsoc:
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dzheremi
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One wonders why a Protestant gentleman who wound up deciding against the Roman Catholic communion would provide anyone with a their rationalization for becoming Roman Catholic. Are Protestant converts to Orthodoxy now considered appropriate sources of what “legitimate spirituality” is?
He’s wrong, anyway, as he would seem to have eventually recognized himself (or else why is he not Catholic himself?). The RCC does not accommodate Orthodoxy, and that’s the only legitimate spirituality there is. I’m sure that irenic ex-Protestant gentleman would agree.
He’s wrong, anyway, as he would seem to have eventually recognized himself (or else why is he not Catholic himself?). The RCC does not accommodate Orthodoxy, and that’s the only legitimate spirituality there is. I’m sure that irenic ex-Protestant gentleman would agree.
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PRmerger
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'zactly. :yup:
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josie_L
Guest
I’m not the one who wrote the post, and I think you missed the point, i.e., universality (there was no reference to RCC in the post, i.e., it’s the CC she is referring to). To stress my point, I can commune with Byzantine, Maronite, Coptic, Chaldean, Melkite, Ruthenian . . etc., can you do the same???
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dzheremi
Guest
That’s a silly question. Why would I want to commune with people whose faith I don’t share in the first place? I can and do commune with the Orthodox Copts, Armenians, Ethiopians, Indians, Eritreans, Syriacs, Britons, and French (and I suppose now also Bolivians, Guatemalans, and various other newly evangelized Orthodox, though they have not yet developed distinctive usages of the liturgies belonging to the churches which have evangelized them, so there is more in common ritualistically between Orthodox in Mexico and Bolivia than, say, Ethiopian Orthodox and Armenian Orthodox). It’s the Orthodox part that matters, not that there are so many different varieties. On balance, there are more heretics than Orthodox in almost every nation. This is something to consider, rather parading our congregations in places like Pakistan, Jamaica, South Africa, and other formerly Catholic and/or Protestant territories about to potential converts so as to assure them that we really are ‘catholic’ when that’s not even what that term means according to our own Orthodox ecclesiology. That would do nothing to encourage their formation in the Orthodox faith, which of course includes such things.
Meh.
(p.s.- The only reason you even have that diversity to brag about is because of the preexisting non-Catholic churches from which your Eastern compatriots are carved out. There are no indigenous “Catholic” forms of worship in the non-Western world, only adaptations of preexisting Eastern worship according to RCC doctrinal principles, and the importation of wholly Western institutions like religious “orders” in place of monasticism, hence you don’t have Coptic monastics among the Catholic faction of that people, only Franciscans and the like. Eastern Catholic monasticism, such as it is, is just such a manipulation of Eastern monasticism or importation of Western norms, e.g., the ever-popular “Maronite Monks of the Adoration”, whose name is practically only truthful in its preposition).
Meh.
(p.s.- The only reason you even have that diversity to brag about is because of the preexisting non-Catholic churches from which your Eastern compatriots are carved out. There are no indigenous “Catholic” forms of worship in the non-Western world, only adaptations of preexisting Eastern worship according to RCC doctrinal principles, and the importation of wholly Western institutions like religious “orders” in place of monasticism, hence you don’t have Coptic monastics among the Catholic faction of that people, only Franciscans and the like. Eastern Catholic monasticism, such as it is, is just such a manipulation of Eastern monasticism or importation of Western norms, e.g., the ever-popular “Maronite Monks of the Adoration”, whose name is practically only truthful in its preposition).
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Peter_J
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How can it be legitimate, if it’s not accommodated in the Roman Communion?
(Kidding
… well, sort of.)
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Peter_J
Guest
But of course, I could likewise say “I didn’t know that the apostles and early church were not Catholic.”
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dzheremi
Guest
But of course. How could I be so silly!How can it be legitimate, if it’s not accommodated in the Roman Communion?
(Kidding
(It’s good to see somebody around here has a sense of humor…sort of.
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pocohombre
Guest
Yes, whatever that means (it’s in the eyes of the beholder). Then why would Andrewstx think he had to leave Evangelicanism to become RC ?But of course, I could likewise say “I didn’t know that the apostles and early church were not Catholic.”
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Slaney
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Who’s Holy Spirit is right ? that’s your problem…
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dronald
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Yes, I was also beginning to think this discussion had too much insight. Thanks!
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josie_L
Guest
You missed the point again, i.e., I didn’t ask you to commune with us, I am telling you that our catholicity (which is one of 4 marks distinguishing the true Church) is apparent in the particular Catholic Churches in communion with each other. Byzantine, Coptic, Chaldean, Maronite, Latin . . etc., take your pick, as all are considered Catholic and part of our spiritual heritage.
Oh, now you’re just being jealous.
shaw:
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dzheremi
Guest
Of course you didn’t. Where did I say that you did? What you did ask in post 287 was “To stress my point, I can commune with Byzantine, Maronite, Coptic, Chaldean, Melkite, Ruthenian . . etc., can you do the same???”, to which I answered logically: Why would I want to? I already commune with all the people who are baptized into the Church, so all these other groups (Ruthenians, Maronites, Melkites, whatevers) don’t matter, since they’re outside the boundaries of the communion, so I couldn’t commune with them even if I wanted to. They’re tokens of your idea of what catholicity is, sure, but so what? Would it mean anything to you for me to ask you “I can commune with the Orthodox Copts, Syriacs, Tewahedo, Armenians, Britons, and French – can you do the same?”, or is that a ridiculous and silly question on its face?
That’s good.
Ooo, you found me out…I’m so jealous that I can’t commune with a bunch of people who left the Church already and consider my communion to be heretical because it didn’t follow the Roman bishop, and who embrace councils and doctrines that my Church considers to be contrary to the apostolic faith, and who hold to incredibly skewed and unhealthy ecclesiology that impoverishes their own communion, etc. Why have the Church of St. Athanasius, St. Pachomius, Simon the Tanner, Abdelmasih el-Habashi, and Tamav Irini, when I could join Rome and continue pay lip service to the faith I left by joining Rome? It makes so much sense! I mean, if that’s not having your cake and eating it too…Oh, now you’re just being jealous.
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