Ephesians 2:8-9 vs. James 2

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AnxiousChieftai

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Hi,

I know a Protestant who is arguing that works are not required for salvation, because of Ephesians 2:8-9:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.”

But the book of James says:

“For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

What can I do to show him the Catholic beliefs on Faith and Works?

Thanks so much!
  • Joe
 
Hi,

I know a Protestant who is arguing that works are not required for salvation, because of Ephesians 2:8-9:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.”

But the book of James says:

“For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

What can I do to show him the Catholic beliefs on Faith and Works?

Thanks so much!
  • Joe
You don’t have to go any further than the verse your friend cited, Ephesians 2:8-9.

First of all, note the verse does not say we saved by faith alone. In fact, if you want to be precise, it doesn’t say we are saved by faith at all, but by grace *through *faith.

Secondly, the works St. Paul is talking about in this passage is works of the Jewish law, not works in the sense of doing good and avoiding evil.

Read the passage in context. Better yet, have your friend read it in context, without preconceptions.
 
As for the second part of your question, here is my standard explanation for Catholic teaching on this.

Believe it or not, this is a very common question, because it is one of the least understood teachings of the Church—even by most by Catholics! Many Catholics are even led out of the Faith because they cannot explain Catholic teaching when questioned about:
  1. How do Catholics believe they are saved?
  2. Are YOU saved?
  3. Are YOU “born again?”
  4. How can you be sure that YOU are saved?
    B. This is further complicated by many Protestant’s simple formula for salvation:
  5. Reciting the “sinners prayer.”
  6. Accepting Jesus as their “personal Lord and Savior” (a phrase, by the way, that does not appear in the Bible.)
  7. May or may not be baptized (not necessary, they say)
  8. Can never lose their salvation afterward—good works don’t matter and sin makes no difference.
    C. Many non-Catholic Christians often accuse Catholics of “working their way to heaven”—of being “good enough” to merit heaven.
    D. They also tend to emphasize the doctrine of Sola Fide (faith alone; that all we need to be saved is faith). This teaching was one of the two causes of the Protestant Reformation, and was unknown in the history of the Church until it was invented by Martin Luther.
I. Laying the groundwork: How are we saved? (Salvation 101)
A. Why do we even need to be saved? What are we being saved from?
Answer: SIN
  1. Original Sin and mortal (serious) sin breaks our relationship
    with God. If we die with unrepented mortal sin, we cannot enter
    heaven.
  2. Because of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, we can place our
    faith in him and be baptized. Baptism takes away Original Sin
    and (if we are adults) mortal sin.
  3. This gives us sanctifying grace, also called justification. This
    makes it possible to enter heaven—to be saved.
  4. After baptism, Confession takes away mortal sin and restores sanctifying grace.
  5. To stay in sanctifying grace requires us to receive graces from God. This is called actual grace. We can receive actual graces by following Gods commandments (not sinning), prayer and good works.
II. Do Catholics believe we can work our way to heaven?
A. Catholics are often accused of following a crass form of “works righteousness” system of salvation—that if they do X amount of good deeds and they outweigh their bad deeds, they will make it to heaven. Non-Catholics say works don’t matter at all—all you need is faith alone.
B. Unfortunately, many Catholics, uninformed about the Faith, reinforce this view. When they are asked how a person gets to heaven, they might say something like, “by being a good person,” etc.
C. The Church teaches firmly that faith IS necessary for salvation (CCC 161)
It also teaches, however, that in order to be saved (go to heaven) we must obey Christ’s commandments, not just believe in him (see Matthew 7:21).
D. There are several passages in the Bible that warn us that we must do good and avoid evil if we are to be saved:
· Matthew 5:17-20 Romans 2:6-8
· Matthew 7: 16-20 2 Corinthians 5:10
· Matthew 25:31-46 Revelation 22:12

There is no magic number of good deeds – no “scale” to balance that we have done more good deeds than bad. We are simply obliged to avoid mortal sin and to perform the good works that are presented before us, As we say in the Confietor at the beginning of Mass, we sin “in what we have done and failed to do.” As Romans points out in the context of warning it’s readers to flee sin: “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23 )
 
I get tired of all this now:(

My tip.

First of all agree with your protestant friend what Justification means.😉
 
What can I do to show him the Catholic beliefs on Faith and Works?
I’m never quite sure what Protestants mean by “works”. Do they mean just charitable actions? Or do they mean any and all efforts on our part to obey Our Lord’s commands - including the Ten Commandments?

My response would be that we are saved by grace alone and we do not merit this grace by works. However, we do believe that our subsequent “works” (after receiving grace in Baptism) have an effect on whether we retain this grace or not.
  1. If we are disobedient and our “works”/actiions are seriously wicked (mortal sin) we can lose this saving grace.
  2. If we cooperate with this saving grace by being obedient, the life of grace increases in us and we grow in holiness.
Nita
 
What I can’t understand is why Protestants believe it has to be one thing or another. We as Catholics do not believe in one or the other we believe in both.

We believe in faith and works.

We believe in visible signs of inward graces.

We believe in praying to Jesus and to asking others to pray for us.

We believe in confessing to God and going to our priest.

We believe in the Lord’s Supper as a sign of communion and that it is His Body and Blood.

We believe in being born again through baptism.

We believe in Mortal Sins and Venial Sins.

It is not either “this” or “that” , it is all ,it is complete.

It seems some, if not most, denominations have subtracted from the complete truth since their beginings.

My sister in-law said,after I explained the history of the Catholic Church and the denominations and how they broke off, said I could never “take away” her faith.

I told her “I don’t want to take away your faith, in fact I wish to add to it.”

What is with all the subtraction? How can you possibly see it as subtraction? When in fact it is adding to part the truths that they possess.

It is complete in the Catholic Church. Our primary focus is the Holy Trinity.God the Father,God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, not just one but all.

And as for our salvation

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply:

"As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8),

but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),

and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).

Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12),

with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

All of it!

Sorry just had to vent:blush:
 
It’s a simple question. Ask your friends if they don’t lift a finger to feed the poor, clothe the naked, or help out their brothers, do they think they are still going to get to heaven. If they say yes, ask them to read to you the parable of the Sheep and the Goats one more time.
 
Protestant here. Don’t shoot. 😉

I’ve never been taught that i could ever lose my salvation, but that if you’re saved, you have the holy spirit to work in you and if you keep your focus on Jesus, you will naturally obey Christ, and do all the good works that you can. Therefore there’s no need to do good deeds “on purpose”.

I’m from an asian country where Buddhism figures prominently in the community. There’s a doctrine (not sure what else to call it!) that you can “accumulate merit” and if you’ve collected enough, you’ll be able to “break” the cycle of suffering and thus achieve nirvana.

My Catholic friends often encourage each other by saying things like, “wow you’ve done lots of good deeds”, or “it’s good that you go for Mass so often, your prayers will be answered” etc etc. When people speak like that, it’s not hard for me to wonder what the Catholicism teaches, and since they’re all cradle Catholics, I presume they’ve got enough “exposure” to teachings. To me, it sounds exactly like what Buddhism teaches, ie, the more you do, the more reward you get.

I firmly believe that through your good works you glorify Christ, but no amount of it can ever “guarantee” you a place in heaven. How can that be, since He was without sin had to die for us who are with sin?

What is wrong with my understanding of this faith vs work debate? This is like, the biggest mountain for me in my understanding of Catholicism. Please explain!
 
I’ve never been taught that i could ever lose my salvation, but that if you’re saved, you have the holy spirit to work in you **and if you keep your focus on Jesus, you will naturally obey Christ, ** and do all the good works that you can. Therefore there’s no need to do good deeds “on purpose”.
The highlighted portion above is the crux of the issue: it makes no sense to assert that faith automatically results in obedience, i.e., the performance of good works. To do so would deny any semblance of free will and personal accountability for our actions or inaction. Besides, we all know people who we consider Christians that don’t seem to have much evidence of these automatic works in their life. And we know from our own experience how each of us often struggle to do good and avoid evil.

The New Testament, especially the epistles of St. Paul are filled with exhortations and even commands to Christians --presumably saved and faith-filled – to do some actions and avoid others. If works **automatically **flowed from “saving faith” most of the NT would be superfluous.
What is wrong with my understanding of this faith vs work debate? This is like, the biggest mountain for me in my understanding of Catholicism. Please explain!
Read (or re-read) my Post #3 above, especially Section II.
 
I know a Protestant who is arguing that works are not required for salvation, because of Ephesians 2:8-9:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.”
Here is where reading out of context is always a problem . . .

Have your friend read one more verse. :ouch:

10 - *For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. *

If in our free will we reject those good works that God has prepared for us, then what . . . 🤷

Mike
 
What I can’t understand is why Protestants believe it has to be one thing or another. We as Catholics do not believe in one or the other we believe in both.

We believe in faith and works.

We believe in visible signs of inward graces.

We believe in praying to Jesus and to asking others to pray for us.

We believe in confessing to God and going to our priest.

We believe in the Lord’s Supper as a sign of communion and that it is His Body and Blood.

We believe in being born again through baptism.

We believe in Mortal Sins and Venial Sins.

It is not either “this” or “that” , it is all ,it is complete.

It seems some, if not most, denominations have subtracted from the complete truth since their beginings.

My sister in-law said,after I explained the history of the Catholic Church and the denominations and how they broke off, said I could never “take away” her faith.

I told her “I don’t want to take away your faith, in fact I wish to add to it.”

What is with all the subtraction? How can you possibly see it as subtraction? When in fact it is adding to part the truths that they possess.

It is complete in the Catholic Church. Our primary focus is the Holy Trinity.God the Father,God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, not just one but all.

And as for our salvation

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply:

"As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8),

but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),

and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).

Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12),

with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

All of it!

Sorry just had to vent:blush:
 
Not by works so that none should boast
Meaning, St Paul (make sure to call him SAINT Paul, hehe) was clearly showing that works alone do not save us
nowhere does St. Paul, nor any other NT writer, use the words we are saved by faith alone
in fact, the only place where the prhase “faith alone” is used is in the verse(s) you cited.

also, Romans, for instance, is aimed at Jews and Gentiles, at least from the “teaching” point of view, so St Paul is making them (Gentiles) see that they do not need to be Jews in order to be saved (to be part of “God’s people”), because faith covers them.

So I would dare to say that St Paul uses this over and over again becuase as he states, God sent him to be a disciple for the Gentiles, and the gentiles, like us, are not Jew… according to the old law, we could not be saved because we do not belong to the chosen people… yet since Christ came, we now, through faith, can participate in Salvation
nowhere does it say faith alone, though.

now, more practical, here are some verses that prove fait AND works
(most of this argument and most of the verses below I compiled by listenin to the debate of “sola fide” on www.biblechristiansociety.com)

(works are commended)
2 Timothy 3:16
John 14:12
Matthew 5:16
Colossians 1:10
Titus 2:7
Titus 3:1

(faith and works)
Galatians 5:6
Matthew 19:17
Matthew 7:21
Ephesians 2:10
James 2:24, 26
1 Timothy 5:8
Romans 2:6-8
John 6:53-54
John 6:27-28
1 Corinthians 13:13
James 1:22-23, 25
John 15:1-6
1 Corinthians 13:2
Matthew 25:31-46
Luke 9:23
 
Protestant here. Don’t shoot. 😉 . . .

What is wrong with my understanding of this faith vs work debate? This is like, the biggest mountain for me in my understanding of Catholicism. Please explain!
Laudatur Iesus Christus.

The descriptions which have been given so far are useful. I would like to be a little more “schematic” in the hope of fitting the elements of the Catholic teaching together in a way that makes sense.

God is love. Sanctifying Grace is “the life of God.” Sin is the separation of man’s will from God’s will. Salvation is the union of man with God and his joining in the life of God – which is love within the Trinity.

Given these understandings, the key is to realize that salvation is an active and living thing and it has more than one part. The first part is justification: God the Father made each person and all of creation as gifts for the Son. To enter into the love that the Father has for the Son, one must cooperate in this gift. Baptism is the means of doing this. In Baptism a person freely gives himself or his children to Christ as a gift, in fulfillment of the Father’s intention in creation. This is why one is saved by Baptism – it is one’s entry into the life of the Trinity, a taking part directly in the Father’s love for the Son.

However, this is not all. The initial entry saves, because it allows one to participate in the eternal life of the Trinity – this is what man’s salvation is. But once given to Christ, we must turn again to the Father and participate in the Son’s love for the Father. This is done by acting in Christ, as part of His Mystical Body. This involves many acts of praise offered to the Father and work to extend salvation to the world – the work and will of Christ. The more we act in Christ the more we participate in the life and the liveliness of the Trinity, we have life “more abundantly.”

While acting, however, because we remain free, we can change our mind and choose to disobey, as Adam did. Since God respects our freedom, He allows this voluntary separation from His will. The separation occurs either by our declaring to Him by word or gesture that we have elected to act separate from Him; or by our taking action which is incompatible with His will. All of these are termed “mortal sins,” separations of our will from God’s to such an extent that we are no longer participating in the life of the Trinity, but have made ourselves autonomous from Him. That is sin that “kills the life of grace in us.”

Jesus has provided remedies for these lapses into sin, in the sacraments of Confession and Anointing of the Sick, both of which effect one’s re-entry into the flow of love between the persons of God.

Actions which we do on human initiative, though good – even identical to the acts done in Christ – do not save, because they represent expressions of human will alone – it is not the accomplishments of good works that saves, but the participation in the life of the Trinity – hence we say “grace alone saves.”

Further, once in a state of grace, we are still freely cooperating with the will of God, not being controlled by Him as slaves, but working with Him as adopted children. Hence, we must work to become better and better at our work in praising the Father and working with the Son. When we fall short in our cooperation, we sin – but not mortally – so long as we intend and are making an honest effort to do Christ’s will. These are easily forgiven sins – or as the Lord’s prayer calls them “shortfalls.”

Thus the Catholic view sees eternal life as a present and demanding reality. It is not only a matter of life after death, but abundant participation in the life of the Trinity in the present life – offering praise, suffering, working for good, teaching, offering comfort, healing – all as Jesus did when He walked the earth, and as He continues to do through His Sacraments, including His Church.

In this way, by doing His will and acting in His Mystical Body, each Baptized person not only imitates Christ as a model, but enters into Him and acts as a part of Him in accomplishing His work, which is to love the Father in the Spirit. Hence, by working in Christ as children of God we are saved – in the present tense – we are living the life of the Trinity, the love of each person of the Trinity for the others. This is holiness.

Hence, when Catholics read that “only one thing is required,” we do no take that to be one thing among a multitude of things. Rather we take it to mean that the one thing, grace, encompasses all other things, including and sanctifying all of human life and creation. It is not one thing among many others, it is one all encompassing thing, that God may be all in all.

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.”
I think St. Paul is saying that salvation is a gift from God. It is not something we have earned.
 
I think a good response would be that, as someone else once wrote, “We aren’t really saved by works, but we aren’t saved without them either”. It is a certain logic that if we love The Lord Jesus, we will certainly do good works to show it.👍
 
I think a good response would be that, as someone else once wrote, “We aren’t really saved by works, but we aren’t saved without them either”. It is a certain logic that if we love The Lord Jesus, we will certainly do good works to show it.👍
Great point!!! I always heard it: “Salvation, you can’t earn it, but you can sure blow it”.
 
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