Ephesians 2:8-9

[Holly3278]

Ephesians 2:8 RSV For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–
Ephesians 2:9 RSV not because of works, lest any man should boast.

A fundamentalist Baptist asked me to explain this verse to her. How do I explain it?

 

[tobinatorstark]

Ephesians 2:8 RSV For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–
Ephesians 2:9 RSV not because of works, lest any man should boast.

A fundamentalist Baptist asked me to explain this verse to her. How do I explain it?

From the Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 9. James, and Cephas, and John. No proof of any greater authority can be drawn from the placing or numbering of James first, which perhaps St. Paul might do, because of the great respect he knew the Jewish converts had for St. James, bishop of Jerusalem, where the ceremonies of the law of Moses were still observed. Several Greek copies have Peter, James, and John. So we also read in St. Jerome’s Commentary, p. 240, and St. Chrysostom in his Exposition, p. 729, has Cephas, John, and James. (Witham)

The Douay-Rheims

For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9 Not of works, that no man may glory.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Ephesians 2:8 RSV For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–
Ephesians 2:9 RSV not because of works, lest any man should boast.

A fundamentalist Baptist asked me to explain this verse to her. How do I explain it?

I know that it was intended to be a gotcha question from the Protestant who tries to use that passage as proof of faith alone. But that passage does not teach that we are saved by faith alone or works, but by grace alone, and faith does not even originate from us, but it is also a gift from God. This is Paul’s point. Predestination comes into play in this passage.

And since faith is a gift from God we still have the responsibility by our own free will to put our faith into action. James says faith without works are dead. (2:20) But if you believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ then make sure you thank God for that gift of Faith by living a life of thanksgiving and obedience to HIM.

 

[garysibio]

Ephesians 2:8 RSV For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–
Ephesians 2:9 RSV not because of works, lest any man should boast.

A fundamentalist Baptist asked me to explain this verse to her. How do I explain it?

A Fundamentalist will tell you that St. Paul is saying here that we are saved by faith alone. The problem is that the ford ‘alone’ does not appear in this passage. In fact, the only passage in the entire Bible that uses the phrase ‘faith alone’ in James 2:24 which says that we are not saved by faith alone.

Faith does play a role in our salvation so it is true to say that we are saved by faith. This is what happens to us when we are baptized. Your Fundamentalist friend also needs to continue reading in the passage. V. 10 explains his error. We are saved in order to do good works. These are not works that we do in our own strength to earn our own salvation which would be impossible but these are works of the Holy Spirit which God performs through us, and without which we cannot be saved.

Gary

 

[Nita]

Without faith, no one would seek Baptism.

It is faith that brings an adult to seek Baptism, which infuses our soul with the life of grace which saves us.
It is the faith of parents that causes them to seek Baptism for their children so they too can receive the life of grace. When these small children grow up, it becomes necessary for them to have faith if they are to retain this saving grace. If they reject faith in Our Lord, turn their backs on His commands, they can lose this grace.

 

[garysibio]

Without faith, no one would seek Baptism.

It is faith that brings an adult to seek Baptism, which infuses our soul with the life of grace which saves us.
It is the faith of parents that causes them to seek Baptism for their children so they too can receive the life of grace. When these small children grow up, it becomes necessary for them to have faith if they are to retain this saving grace. If they reject faith in Our Lord, turn their backs on His commands, they can lose this grace.

All true but it is also by faith that we say that baptism frees us from any sin committed up to the time when we are baptized and that we are united with Jesus in His death and resurrection. We are also, by faith, made part of the body of Christ.

Gary

 

[Nita]

All true but it is also by faith that we say that baptism frees us from any sin committed up to the time when we are baptized and that we are united with Jesus in His death and resurrection. We are also, by faith, made part of the body of Christ.

Gary

Are you referring to conditions/situations incorporated in what the Church refers to as “Baptism of Desire”?

 

[Holly3278]

Ah ok. Thanks everyone! Your answers have helped me!

 

[garysibio]

Are you referring to conditions/situations incorporated in what the Church refers to as “Baptism of Desire”?

That would be included but it’s not specifically what I had in mind. The Church teaches that water baptism forgives any sins you have committed - I’m talking about adults here, infants have committed no sins - and releases you from any temporal punishment due to those sins. This gift we receive by faith.

Gary

 

[Bastoune]

Why not ask her to explain the verse she OMITTED (probably because as a Baptist, she’s never READ it), verse 10 as Gary meentioned:

"For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Eph. 2:10)

And ask her to explain Matthew chapter 25 and 7:21-27, Revelation 20:12 and James 2:26…

And then to paraphrase Jesus, “Neither will I answer you about Eph. 2:8-9.”

Don’t play their “pick verses at random” game.

 

[ron77nyc]

Ephesians 2:8 RSV For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–
Ephesians 2:9 RSV not because of works, lest any man should boast.

A fundamentalist Baptist asked me to explain this verse to her. How do I explain it?

The Pope has recently spoken about this. You can read the whole thing at:zenit.org/article-24309?l=english

"Paul knows," he added, "that in the double love of God and neighbor the whole law is fulfilled. Thus the whole law is observed in communion with Christ, in faith that creates charity. We are just when we enter into communion with Christ, who is love."

The problem that exists now is that the Catholic Church has not always been clear about it. They used to tell people that they were saved by good works. Many Protestant denominations were also unclear about it and taught salvation by good works. The Baptists are probably one of them. People of all faiths used to think if their good deeds outweighed their bad deeds they would be saved. Purgatory was at one time thought to be a place where you could pay for your sins. The bible is very clear. Without faith it is impossible to please God. The Catholic Church has always taught that if a person has a deathbed conversion and gets baptized, that person will go straight to heaven. Isn’t that salvation by faith alone without works?

 

[NHInsider]

Short answer would be “that is absolutely correct.” Catholics don’t need to “explain” this verse, we believe it. We can’t earn our salvation, it is a free gift - well, free to us, paid for by the awesome and infinitely valuable Blood of our Lord.

But then - ask your fundamentalist questioner, in turn about verse 10. Because the Lord didn’t pay that price “just” so we could get to heaven. He saved us “for good works” - so that we could be His Body on earth.

To focus entirely on verses 8 & 9 and skip verse 10 is to take the passage out of context. The letter to the Ephesians splits neatly into two parts (linked by the “therefore” in 4:1). The first half (which ends with the “Amen” at the end of chapter 3) is a recap of the “how” of salvation, in the context of a prayer of praise and thanksgiving to God for the faith of the Ephesians (and by extension, of all the faithful). The second half of the book is the “and so” - the life application, as modern homelitics would describe it. "Since you’ve been saved by God’s grace, live like this: " It’s all about “works.”

or to quote the late, great troubador Rich Mullins “faith without works? It just ain’t happening!”
(I wish there was a singing smiley)

 

[Bastoune]

The problem that exists now is that the Catholic Church has not always been clear about it. They used to tell people that they were saved by good works.

Really? When? Do you have a quote?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Ephesians 2:8 RSV For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–
Ephesians 2:9 RSV not because of works, lest any man should boast.

A fundamentalist Baptist asked me to explain this verse to her. How do I explain it?

(Hint: Don’t look at Eph 2:10 or James 2:24)
catholicdefense.googlepages.com/eph2

 

[ron77nyc]

Really? When? Do you have a quote?

I never knew I was saved by grace through faith until I was about 18 yrs. old when it was explained in a Protestant church. I never knew I was a Christian. The only thing that was important when I was growing up was being a Catholic. Here’s a link that explains the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church.

catholica.com.au/gc2/ge/002_ge_040708.php

Pre-Vatican II RE — mainly about “reproduction”…

"When I began teaching, in a small primary school in Sydney in 1964, religious education was mostly about “reproduction”. I had learnt the catechism, word perfect. I was expected to teach the catechism word perfect. The main aim was the reproduction of good Catholics. In a book written in the 1950s the Church was described, typically:

The Catholic Church is a divinely instituted society, of which all the members profess the doctrine of Christ and are united under the teaching and rule of the Roman Pontiff and the Bishops subject to him, that thereby they may strive after holiness and obtain salvation. Like all other societies it has, therefore, a system of authority by which it is ruled, and by which it was established."

 

[garysibio]

I never knew I was saved by grace through faith until I was about 18 yrs. old when it was explained in a Protestant church. I never knew I was a Christian. The only thing that was important when I was growing up was being a Catholic. Here’s a link that explains the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church.

catholica.com.au/gc2/ge/002_ge_040708.php

Pre-Vatican II RE — mainly about “reproduction”…

"When I began teaching, in a small primary school in Sydney in 1964, religious education was mostly about “reproduction”. I had learnt the catechism, word perfect. I was expected to teach the catechism word perfect. The main aim was the reproduction of good Catholics. In a book written in the 1950s the Church was described, typically:

The Catholic Church is a divinely instituted society, of which all the members profess the doctrine of Christ and are united under the teaching and rule of the Roman Pontiff and the Bishops subject to him, that thereby they may strive after holiness and obtain salvation. Like all other societies it has, therefore, a system of authority by which it is ruled, and by which it was established."

While it is true - and sad - that a lot of Catholics were never taught that we are saved by the grace of God, the teaching of the Catholic Church has always been that this was the case. I was also one of those people who didn’t get the message. I left the Church and, eventually, Christianity for several years. When I returned to Jesus it was through Campus Crusade for Christ, an Evangelical group which operated on my college campus.

For a while I admit I was a bit bitter about the failure of the priests and nuns who had taught me but then God showed me something: Had I not been so lazy about it I could have gotten up off my butt and found out for myself. It’s not like the truth was hidden in a vault. I was just as much to blame as the teachers who didn’t teach.

My wife had the opposite experience. She had good teachers who taught her the truth. She asked her mother about this once - they not only went to the same Catholic high school, they had the same English teacher - and her mother had always been taught that we were saved by grace and not by works.

Gary

 

[Bastoune]

I never knew I was saved by grace through faith until I was about 18 yrs. old when it was explained in a Protestant church. I never knew I was a Christian. The only thing that was important when I was growing up was being a Catholic. Here’s a link that explains the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church.

catholica.com.au/gc2/ge/002_ge_040708.php

Pre-Vatican II RE — mainly about “reproduction”…

"When I began teaching, in a small primary school in Sydney in 1964, religious education was mostly about “reproduction”. I had learnt the catechism, word perfect. I was expected to teach the catechism word perfect. The main aim was the reproduction of good Catholics. In a book written in the 1950s the Church was described, typically:

The Catholic Church is a divinely instituted society, of which all the members profess the doctrine of Christ and are united under the teaching and rule of the Roman Pontiff and the Bishops subject to him, that thereby they may strive after holiness and obtain salvation. Like all other societies it has, therefore, a system of authority by which it is ruled, and by which it was established."

Where is “striving for holiness and obtain salvation” mean we are saved by works? Just read the Bible: Romans 6:22, 1 Cor. 7:1/9:24, Hebrews 10:14, Gal. 2:2, etc.

Just because you were poorly catechized doesn’t mean the Church taught we you think you were taught.

I praise God for amazing CCD classes when I was a kid.

 

[ron77nyc]

Where is “striving for holiness and obtain salvation” mean we are saved by works? Just read the Bible: Romans 6:22, 1 Cor. 7:1/9:24, Hebrews 10:14, Gal. 2:2, etc.

The Bible was not an option back then.

Just because you were poorly catechized doesn’t mean the Church taught we you think you were taught.

 

[Bastoune]

My wife had the opposite experience. She had good teachers who taught her the truth. She asked her mother about this once - they not only went to the same Catholic high school, they had the same English teacher - and her mother had always been taught that we were saved by grace and not by works.

Gary

Already when I was first approached by Protestant radicals like Campus Crusade, I was quite able to shoot down their anti-Catholic arguments. Sadly, the whole experience has made me even to today quite “on the offensïve” whenever I meet Protestants because I am used to their look of repulsion when they hear I am Catholic.

But like your wife, my experience was great. We discussed the works of the Saints even as early as our first year of catechism classes. I was already quite versed in Augustine by the time I was in grade 6.

And I agree with you that if you’re spiritually hungry and not getting fed in the Catholic Church, get up and serve yourself at the banquet if no one is waiting on you!!! Plenty of resources out there, and the depth of the spirituality of the Catholic Church is a billion times richer than anything Protestantism can offer. (Why bother to be holy, because you’re already saved. I remember a girl was fasting for some cause – she was Assemblies of God – and when I went to talk to her about her fast, she had no clue as to why she was fasting, meaning how it is spiritually beneficial with prayer.)

 

[ron77nyc]

While it is true - and sad - that a lot of Catholics were never taught that we are saved by the grace of God, the teaching of the Catholic Church has always been that this was the case. I was also one of those people who didn’t get the message. I left the Church and, eventually, Christianity for several years. When I returned to Jesus it was through Campus Crusade for Christ, an Evangelical group which operated on my college campus.

For a while I admit I was a bit bitter about the failure of the priests and nuns who had taught me but then God showed me something: Had I not been so lazy about it I could have gotten up off my butt and found out for myself. It’s not like the truth was hidden in a vault. I was just as much to blame as the teachers who didn’t teach.

My wife had the opposite experience. She had good teachers who taught her the truth. She asked her mother about this once - they not only went to the same Catholic high school, they had the same English teacher - and her mother had always been taught that we were saved by grace and not by works.

Gary

Thanks for being honest. As I wrote earlier; I don’t blame only my teachers. I’ve heard protestant ministers speak about having the same experience and much later on in life the Holy Spirit revealed the truth after many years of self effort. It also happened to St. Paul that way only thankfully I didn’t kill anyone in the process.