Ephesians 2 - What’s the Gift?

[spockrates]

Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t compare a Jedi mind trick to the gift of faith. Perhaps it has to do more with the motives for offering the gift. It’s certainly not done in love for the other person with their best in mind where their mind, body, soul, & eternity come in - where there is still the opportunity to say no (I’m sure there are more than a few people around who may’ve had faith at one point in time, & then left the faith because they no longer believed - & they cite their reasons).

There is a reciprocity - a relationship that forms from it that leads to the good of the one receiving the gift & the knowledge of the One Who made that person. They usually have knowledge of their reasons for their faith (Some can articulate it better than others). The Creator who bestows this gift holds the recipient as a beloved precious child.

The mind trick is the use of mind manipulation clearly intended to exploit another person against their knowledge, will, and ultimate good because they are perceivably weak-minded & weak-willed. I actually rather liken it to a more subtle form of the the Harry Potter imperio curse, where one is forced to do something against their will.

Oh, you’re fine! I think the fault is all mine. I mean, several here have no problem believing faith is a gift God does for me and not a decision I make myself. I’m just trying to understand why I can’t yet see what others are seeing.

I agree the Jedi Mind Trick is manipulative, and God is not, but that’s why I’m thinking faith can’t be something God does for me but instead something I myself do. Otherwise, wouldn’t it be manipulation?

I’m sure I’m just blind and someone her will say what I need to hear to take the mud out of my eyes!

 

[jcrichton]

Here’s a comparison:

8-9 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2)
20-24 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. 21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (Romans 3)

God’s Grace is Free!

God’s Justification is Free!

Salvation is God’s Free Gift to the world!

Further, we have:

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. (Romans 12)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10)
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (Romans 5)
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: (Romans 4)
27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles. (Acts 14)
14 And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you. 15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift. (2 Corinthians 9)

Now, it would be wonderful if the Bible would be like a dictionary that all one would need do is locate the index and follow the title to find an unabridged explanation… but would that not remove our dependency upon the Holy Spirit and create a false belief that man can decipher God’s Way?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yeah; but since your quest seems honest… an honest mistake (typo) can be overlooked!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Actually… right film wrong analogy.

The example offered is basically mind-over-matter control: ‘these are not the droids you are looking for’ (but they are); ‘you don’t need to see his identification’ (but he must).

Now, I take you to the training grounds… remember when Luke wanted to go into the cave? Yoda warned him not to go; yet, as he insisted, Yoda then warned him not to take a weapon with him.

There was still another incident of faith… when Yoda requested that he finish the training… Luke failed in all accounts because he chose his will rather than place his faith on Yoda, his training, and “the force.”

Now, his training, the force, and the alliance with the “good” side of the force never left him in spite of his failings; here’s how it truly shined:
Luke trusted that what he felt from his father (“I’ll never join you…”), the goodness deep within, was from the good side of the force ("…that’s why you could not [or was it: “would not?”] destroy me. I sense good in you."). Finally, that faith was brought to surface (“you already have” [save him, that is] and let’s not forget: “let me see you with my own eyes…”) as Sr. Skywalker returns to the fold.

All of them had the same measure of faith allotted to them; they rejected, circumvented or submitted to it in their own manner and time–yet, the force (faith) never left them.

It is the Way of God (that’s why Star Wars is a great “connect” film): He Freely Gifts us the Gift of Faith as He Allows us to choose to join Him (the good side of the force) through His Holy Spirit–yet, simultaneously Allowing us to reject or even work against Him as we surrender to our will instead of His Will.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Spockrates!

I’ve just caught your screen name… lol!

Great messing of strengths and disciplines!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Francis]

@spockrates

I mean, in the example from the classic science fiction film (please see the YouTube video at the link if you’re not familiar) the Jedi Master gives the the stormtrooper guard the gift of faith, so to speak. At first, they don’t trust him and his companions. He uses the Jedi Mind Trick to give them the trust they don’t have. They then let them move along.

here the Angels blinded them Genesis 19, same way.Faith is a gift from god given during baptism in small proportions,its our duty to increase it by prayer,fasting good-works by relying on god and not on ourselves, as it is given in earthen pots which is very fragile, and can be lost or broken at any time, unless you and i rely completely on god

Genesis 19:1 The two angels came to Sodom in the evening; and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed himself with his face to the earth,10 But the men put forth their hands and brought Lot into the house to them, and shut the door. 11 And they struck with blindness the men who were at the door of the house, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves groping for the door.

2 Corinthians 4: 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

James 1:17 Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
1 Corinthians 4:7 For who sees anything different in you? What have you that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift?
1 Corinthians 12:99 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity,23 Mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity. Against such there is no law.

1 Corinthians 13:13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! 6 I hope you will find out that we have not failed. 7 But we pray God that you may not do wrong—not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed. 8 For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. 9 For we are glad when we are weak and you are strong. What we pray for is your improvement.

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

 

[Hodos]

You are correct that I am not Calvinist. I do believe that much can be learned from them, they have some excellent scholars within their tradition, though I would stop short of where they continue from the concept of election and predestination and cross the line into the realm of double predestination.

That being said, I’m wondering about grace. The Calvinist would say it’s only God’s unmerited favor and nothing more, but don’t Catholics believe it’s much more? For example, is it correct to define grace as God’s unmerited favor and power, which empowers us to become more like Christ?

I think a Calvinist would also agree that by grace we receive the Holy Spirit and are being conformed to the likeness of Christ as well. We are justified by grace, and we are sanctified by grace.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Faith is a gift. We are given this gift at Baptism.

When we are old enough, we can open the gift.

Imagine I give you a gift as a baby gift. Your parents keep it safe until you are mature enough to use the gift. That simple.

 

[spockrates]

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity,23 Mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity. Against such there is no law.

Hmmm. Not sure from what version you’re quoting. The New American Standard Bible translates St. Paul’s words this way:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
(Galatians 5:22-23, emphasis added)

I’m thinking faithfulness is trustworthiness,but faith is trust. Apples and oranges, I think! Right?

 

[spockrates]

Now, it would be wonderful if the Bible would be like a dictionary that all one would need do is locate the index and follow the title to find an unabridged explanation… but would that not remove our dependency upon the Holy Spirit and create a false belief that man can decipher God’s Way?

What I find is a great many Christians who say they’re right because the Holy Spirit has taught them, yet they disagree on what scripture says about specific key doctrines, so…

I mean, I like the explanation some Catholics give me that reliance on scripture and the Holy Spirit is insufficient to teach us that we need a reliable authority to give us the correct interpretations, and that authority is the Catholic Church, they tell me.

 

[spockrates]

Actually… right film wrong analogy.

The example offered is basically mind-over-matter control: ‘these are not the droids you are looking for’ (but they are); ‘you don’t need to see his identification’ (but he must).

Now, I take you to the training grounds… remember when Luke wanted to go into the cave? Yoda warned him not to go; yet, as he insisted, Yoda then warned him not to take a weapon with him.

There was still another incident of faith… when Yoda requested that he finish the training… Luke failed in all accounts because he chose his will rather than place his faith on Yoda, his training, and “the force.”

Now, his training, the force, and the alliance with the “good” side of the force never left him in spite of his failings; here’s how it truly shined:
Luke trusted that what he felt from his father (“I’ll never join you…”), the goodness deep within, was from the good side of the force ("…that’s why you could not [or was it: “would not?”] destroy me. I sense good in you."). Finally, that faith was brought to surface (“you already have” [save him, that is] and let’s not forget: “let me see you with my own eyes…”) as Sr. Skywalker returns to the fold.

All of them had the same measure of faith allotted to them; they rejected, circumvented or submitted to it in their own manner and time–yet, the force (faith) never left them.

It is the Way of God (that’s why Star Wars is a great “connect” film): He Freely Gifts us the Gift of Faith as He Allows us to choose to join Him (the good side of the force) through His Holy Spirit–yet, simultaneously Allowing us to reject or even work against Him as we surrender to our will instead of His Will.

Maran atha!

Angel

Yeah, yeah! Like when the Holy Spirit warned St. Paul to steer clear of the emperor in Rome, but he went anyway! Right?

But I’m speaking of a more basic and foundational faith, which one biblical author puts the kind of faith I have in mind this way:

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
(Hebrews 11:6)

So, same film you have in mind, different scene this time: Luke travels in his small, x-wing fighter spacecraft to a remote planet to find the great Jedi Master Yoda, who trained his now deceased master Obi Wan. His spacecraft crashes in a swamp. He gets to safety on dry land, but the ship sinks.

A feeble old grown alien with a cane hobbles over. Luke asks if the is fart knows where he mightn’t find the great Jedi Master.

“Found him, you have!” replies Yoda, or something to that effect. Luke doesn’t believe him. Yoda uses the power of the force to lift his spacecraft with his mind out of the more and onto dry land. Only then does Luke trust in who Yoda is and what he can do.

I’m talking about the kind of faith where a person trusts in who Christ truly is and what he’s capable of doing - in effect, trusting that what the Bible says about him is I fact true. Is this the kind of faith God gives us, or is it something we give to him?

Make sense?

 

[Francis]

@spockrates
Its from Douay-Rheims Bible since it has 12 virtues i prefer it, other’s are from NRSV-CE. which has 9 Virtues

I’m thinking faithfulness is trustworthiness,but faith is trust. Apples and oranges, I think! Right?

yes i agree with you,but a small explanation here ,i think Faith has to be strengthened,tested ,and that strong faith leads to Complete trust, Jesus i Trust in Thee!

 

[Vico]

…For by grace you have been saved through faith…Ephesians 2:8

Grace (Χάρις).

Salvation, final perseverance, requires our cooperation with grace. Matt 10

22 He that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

And grace brings the three theological virtues. Catechism

1813 The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being. There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity. 77
[77] Cf. 1 Cor 13:13.

Compare with Titus 3:6-7:

6 Whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Savior: 7 That, being justified by his grace, we may be heirs, according to hope of life everlasting.

 

[fhansen]

The virtue of faith is a gift of grace that saves us. But all three are the gift since we cannot save ourselves; its all by God’s initiative, which we can accept and respond to, by believing first of all, or not. St Paul was using a bit of encouraging hyperbole to maintain that all who read or heard his letter we’re necessarily already saved.

 

[spockrates]

Hi, Spockrates!

I’ve just caught your screen name… lol!

Great messing of strengths and disciplines!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[spockrates]

They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being. There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.

Dude! I think I see now! I mean, I was thinking of faith as trusting that God and what he says in scripture is true. This speaks of another kind of faith, that being trusting God to make one more like Christ.

 

[spockrates]

@kainosktisis

@jcrichton

@francis

@Rob2

@TheLittleLady

@Roseeurekacross

So, I believe my difficulty is rooted in what St. Paul means by the words, “you are saved”. Evangelicals tell me saved has different meanings in the NT:
A. being rescued from the penalty of sin
B. being rescued from the power of sin
C. being rescued from the presence of sin

They tell me St. Paul is speaking of (A) in Ephesians 2. The penalty of sin, which is hell is no longer applied to the believer at the moment she put’s faith in Christ, they explain. This is what they refer to as salvation, as a one and done transaction, so to speak.

In contrast, it seems (please correct me if I’m wrong) each of you is speaking of being saved in the sense of (B). That is, trusting God to empower one to become more like Christ. This is what Evangelicals tell me Ian sanctification, adding that sanctification earns us rewards in heaven, but has nothing to do with getting us there.

I don’t believe any of you think St. Paul is speaking of grace in the sense of (C), unless, of course one or more of you is a Thomist ! (Is that the correct name of the sect?) Evangelicals tell me (C) is the kind of saving we experience only after we reach heaven.

---

In other words, I was interpreting Ephesians 2 this way:

For by grace you have been saved [from the penalty of sin and gain admittance into heaven] through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God… .
(Ephesians 2:8)

But I think each of you understands St. Paul to instead say:

For by grace you have been saved [from the power of sin and are sanctified] through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God… .
(Ephesians 2:8)

 

[TheLittleLady]

The word “salvation” appears more than 200 times in the Catechism.

I’d suggest reading each instance. You may do a word search here:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[spockrates]

The word “salvation” appears more than 200 times in the Catechism.

I’d suggest reading each instance. You may do a word search here:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Thank you !

 

[fhansen]

Dude! I think I see now! I mean, I was thinking of faith as trusting that God and what he says in scripture is true. This speaks of another kind of faith, that being trusting God to make one more like Christ.

Yes! The New Covenant is about the triune God indwelling, as was always intended as the right order of things for man (“Apart from Me you can do nothing”, John 15:5), and He then doing a work in us, of justifying us, of molding us into the beings He created us to be, a feat we cannot achieve on our own even as we must cooperate in this endeavor.

But only He, our Creator, can accomplish this- while the message of the Fall is a message of man separating himself from this vital relationship, of man seeking autonomy from God in the moral sphere, of man becoming his own “god”, so to speak. The most important New Covenant prophecy is Jer 31:33-34, where God promises to do what we fail to do, to ‘put His law in our minds and write it on our hearts’, as He becomes ‘our God, and we His people’. Verse 34 speaks more of this new or re-established relationship between man and God:
"No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

This speaks of something different, of the intimate relationship man was always meant to have with God; of communion, and this begins, from man’s perspective, with faith, a gift. So, understood this way, faith is not the equivalent of justice or righteousness for man, as if my profession of trust in God is sufficient to save me, or as if faith is all He wants from, and for, us. Rather faith is the beginning of our justification as the Church teaches; we’re “justified by faith” because we’re justified through or via faith because it opens the door to God, to this relationship that we’re lost without. Justice, itself, involves all three virtues: faith, hope, and love, with love being the most important as St Paul tells us in 1 Cor 13. Love truly defines man’s justice which is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are. This is what faith is meant to lead to, but doesn’t necessarily. So St Paul could also say in 1 Cor 13:
"… if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."
and Augustine could say:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."