Ephesians 5, 21-32

[severus68]

Didn’t realize I had to be learned in Catholicism to post on here. Do you know all there is to now about Catholicism. I wasnt trying to put a denomination on how I interpret Father, Son, Man?

I have said that I am still learning. You do not even have to be Catholic to post here but just making statements and insisting they are doctrine without making sure would really mislead, even if done unintentionally.

 

[houseofsaul]

Please, you cannot support your stand by referring to a seperate issue. I was taught about the Real Presence when I was young by religious. I still do not pretend to be a theologian.

The reference to unclean was a reference to how Jews viewed no Jews./QUOTE

Finished with this convo as is no longer about submission .

 

[severus68]

RCIA can in no way assist me or convince me that God the Father, God the Son, does not have a gender. If he were not to be seen to have a gender as we understand it, why would Jesus teach us to pray Our Father, knowing in our minds we would vision someone of the male persuasion. Jesus is God, came in form of man, not woman, thus he is male.

Jesus is the same today, yesterday and forever.

So you cannot learn fro RCIA?

 

[houseofsaul]

I have said that I am still learning. You do not even have to be Catholic to post here but just making statements and insisting they are doctrine without making sure would really mislead, even if done unintentionally.

Insisting that submission is respect and that women have a role that does not match up with the majority of today’s society doesn’t change what the bible says.

 

[severus68]

severus68;9712616:

Please, you cannot support your stand by referring to a seperate issue. I was taught about the Real Presence when I was young by religious. I still do not pretend to be a theologian.

The reference to unclean was a reference to how Jews viewed no Jews.

You yourself brought up this passage.

 

[LightBound]

Although it seems that when you have a discussion with someone of the Catholic faith and you bring up scripture, all they want to do is bring up Sacred Tradition and our Magisterium and the Pope.

Should not Scripture, The Living Word of God take precedence?

No, Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are equal.

“89. The Bible and Sacred Tradition are of equal authority because they are equally the word of God’ both derive
from the inspired vision of the ancient prophets, and especially from the infinite wisdom of God incarnate who
gave to the apostles what he came down on earth to teach, through them, to all of mankind.”

from the Question and Answer Catholic Catechism.

 

[babs57]

BTW the Church states that it is not the one who does not allow women priests but that Christ chose only males to be His apostles with priests their successors so it God who set that rule. I am stating it very simply, I am sure someone can explain it better.

This topic is actually less about women being subordinate than it is about the priest acting “in persona Christi” (CCC 1548). If The Church is the bride of Christ, and the priest is acting “in persona Christi” at the Marriage Supper of The Lamb, it would be more than scandelous for the priest to be a woman.

 

[LightBound]

Insisting that submission is respect and that women have a role that does not match up with the majority of today’s society doesn’t change what the bible says.

Again, you are going with the Protestant mindset that the Bible contains all the truths of the Christian Faith. You are really going to need to let go of the Sola Scriptura if you are called to be Catholic. As shown by your posts on here, it’s going to be one of your biggest challenges during your RCIA process and one you’ll need to pray about often.

Have you read Scott Hahn? David Currie? Tim Staples? If not, get their books that describe their conversion from various Protestant denominations into Catholicism. I think more than one of them had a hang-up about the Magisterium and Sacred Tradition. It will be of some help. If you’ve read them already, go back and read their stories again…paying close attention to what they have to say about Sacred Tradition and the Pope’s authority.

 

[Bookcat]

RCIA can in no way assist me or convince me that God the Father, God the Son, does not have a gender. If he were not to be seen to have a gender as we understand it, why would Jesus teach us to pray Our Father, knowing in our minds we would vision someone of the male persuasion. Jesus is God, came in form of man, not woman, thus he is male.

Jesus is the same today, yesterday and forever.

Is God the Father to be called Father? Yes

But is he a man? No.

Is Jesus Christ a man and male? Yes

The second Person of the Holy Trinity yes became man (in the human and the male sense) and did not cease being that being so. He is the bride-groom. We (the Church) are the bride.

Catechism of the Catholic Church (it is in smaller type --for the reason --see the intro to the Catechism):

239 By calling God “Father”, the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God’s parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood,62 which emphasizes God’s immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. The language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents, who are in a way the first representatives of God for man. But this experience also tells us that human parents are fallible and can disfigure the face of fatherhood and motherhood. We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard:63 no one is father as God is Father.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p2.htm#238

Compendium:

1. What did Jesus Christ reveal to us about the mystery of the Father?

240-242

Jesus Christ revealed to us that God is “Father”, not only insofar as he created the universe and the mankind, but above all because he eternally generated in his bosom the Son who is his Word, “ the radiance of the glory of God and the very stamp of his nature” (Hebrews 1:3).

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#I%20Believe%20in%20God%20the%20Father

 

[houseofsaul]

So you cannot learn fro RCIA?

Didn’t say couldnt learn, said will not change my view on the gender of my God the Father. The bible doesnt say God is Unisex.

I believe in God, the **Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father **Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

John 1:50-51

50 Jesus said, “You believe[a] because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that.” 51 He then added, “Very truly I tell you,** you[c] will see ‘heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on’[d] the Son of Man.”**

 

[houseofsaul]

Is Jesus Christ a man and male? Yes

Is Jesus Christ not God?

Colossians1: 15-16
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

And in your own words

The second Person of the Holy Trinity yes became man (in the human and the male sense) and did not cease being that being so.

 

[houseofsaul]

houseofsaul;9712623:

You yourself brought up this passage.

Yes I did. Guilty as charged.

 

[babs57]

Didn’t say couldnt learn, said will not change my view on the gender of my God the Father. The bible doesnt say God is Unisex.

I believe in God, the **Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father **Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

John 1:50-51

50 Jesus said, “You believe[a] because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that.” 51 He then added, “Very truly I tell you,** you[c] will see ‘heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on’[d] the Son of Man**.”

And all this has nothing to do with poor Tim Landry’s origional issue which was the place of women in marriage and the Church.

 

[houseofsaul]

BTW the Church states that it is not the one who does not allow women priests but that Christ chose only males to be His apostles with priests their successors so it God who set that rule. I am stating it very simply, I am sure someone can explain it better.

This topic is actually less about women being subordinate than it is about the priest acting “in persona Christi” (CCC 1548). If The Church is the bride of Christ, and the priest is acting “in persona Christi” at the Marriage Supper of The Lamb, it would be more than scandelous for the priest to be a woman.

I agree…that wasn’t my point. When I add snippets to my post they usually follow a question or to questions another posters remarks. For instance dont take the literal stance of the Protestant some say, except in the Eucharist, and the tem Commandments, and that women shouldnt be Priests, but not literal in the instruction of how to live a Christian life., for example, submission to husbands, silent in the church, etc.

 

[houseofsaul]

No, Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are equal.

“89. The Bible and Sacred Tradition are of equal authority because they are equally the word of God’ both derive
from the inspired vision of the ancient prophets, and especially from the infinite wisdom of God incarnate who
gave to the apostles what he came down on earth to teach, through them, to all of mankind.”

from the Question and Answer Catholic Catechism.

So the Apostles taught through tradition that submission to husbands was not necessary even though scripture said so. You would have tradition contradict the scripture rather than complement it.

 

[Bookcat]

Although it seems that when you have a discussion with someone of the Catholic faith and you bring up scripture, all they want to do is bring up Sacred Tradition and our Magisterium and the Pope.

Should not Scripture, The Living Word of God take precedence?

Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

The Transmission of Divine Revelation

1. Why and in what way is divine revelation transmitted?

74

God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4), that is, of Jesus Christ. For this reason, Christ must be proclaimed to all according to his own command, “Go forth and teach all nations” (Matthew 28:19). And this is brought about by Apostolic Tradition.

1. What is Apostolic Tradition?

75-79,
83,
96, 98

Apostolic Tradition is the transmission of the message of Christ, brought about from the very beginnings of Christianity by means of preaching, bearing witness, institutions, worship, and inspired writings. The apostles transmitted all they received from Christ and learned from the Holy Spirit to their successors, the bishops, and through them to all generations until the end of the world.

1. In what ways does Apostolic Tradition occur?

76

Apostolic Tradition occurs in two ways: through the living transmission of the word of God (also simply called Tradition) and through Sacred Scripture which is the same proclamation of salvation in written form.

1. What is the relationship between Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium?

95

Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium are so closely united with each other that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.

1. How is Sacred Scripture to be read?

109-119
137

Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted with the help of the Holy Spirit and under the guidance of the Magisterium of the Church according to three criteria: 1) it must be read with attention to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture; 2) it must be read within the living Tradition of the Church; 3) it must be read with attention to the analogy of faith, that is, the inner harmony which exists among the truths of the faith themselves.

…

1. What role does Sacred Scripture play in the life of the Church?

131-133
141-142

Sacred Scripture gives support and vigor to the life of the Church. For the children of the Church, it is a confirmation of the faith, food for the soul and the fount of the spiritual life. Sacred Scripture is the soul of theology and of pastoral preaching. The Psalmist says that it is “a lamp to my feet and a light to my path” (Psalm 119:105). The Church, therefore, exhorts all to read Sacred Scripture frequently because “ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ” (Saint Jerome).

Read the whole here: I had to cut it to not make it too long…be sure to read it I had to cut out a bunch

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#God%20Comes%20to%20Meet%20Man

 

[TimothyH]

This is sublime deacon. Thank you.

It is a picture of the innermost working of the Trinity, where God the Father loves God the Son and God the Son loves God the Father, each holding nothing back, with Christ on the cross giving everything as the example.

I wish the trinitarian nature of marriage were explained more, how living the innermost life of the Trinity in our marriages is what makes it sacramental, able to transmit grace, the very life of the Trinity into our own lives.

Thank you again, deacon.

-Tim-

 

[Bookcat]

This

More fuller treatment in the Catechism here:scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm#II

Especially note

The Magisterium of the Church

85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

87 Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”,49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

 

[Bookcat]

Is Jesus Christ a man and male? Yes

Is Jesus Christ not God?

Colossians1: 15-16
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

And in your own words

The second Person of the Holy Trinity yes became man (in the human and the male sense) and did not cease being that being so.

Yes --as I noted Jesus is a man. And yes he is God …he is true God and true man…and yes male.

See the Catechism quotes above. They expand on things.

 

[houseofsaul]

Again, you are going with the Protestant mindset that the Bible contains all the truths of the Christian Faith. You are really going to need to let go of the Sola Scriptura if you are called to be Catholic. As shown by your posts on here, it’s going to be one of your biggest challenges during your RCIA process and one you’ll need to pray about often.

Have you read Scott Hahn? David Currie? Tim Staples? If not, get their books that describe their conversion from various Protestant denominations into Catholicism. I think more than one of them had a hang-up about the Magisterium and Sacred Tradition. It will be of some help. If you’ve read them already, go back and read their stories again…paying close attention to what they have to say about Sacred Tradition and the Pope’s authority.

I have not read any one those fellows. My conversion as you call it has nothing to do with those fellows. I sometimes wonder if the folks who respond to my posts even know Scripture or are they simply googling what the church stance is and then wanting to quote Magisterium and Sacred Tradition, and the Pope.

Why do you think people decide or consider to convert? Be it from Protestant to Catholic or Catholic to Protestant. Because they have read their bibles and the doctrine of their respective churches and with an open mind read and learn what other churches (denominations) believe and then with the help of God discern to the best of their ability to choose which one is most right.

Just because I stand strong in my beliefs does not mean I am not open to hear another side or interpretation. It just means when the other interpretation (opinion) contradicts Scripture, I will continue to disagree. I can’t imagine that the Magisterium, the Pope, or any other true follower of Jesus Christ would dare contradict Scripture with their Sacred Tradition. Traditions should never come before God Inspired Word. Although, I will concede that it can go hand in hand to complement it.

Believe me when I tell you that of all the obstacles of the Catholic Church I have had to overcome has never had anything to do with the authority of the Church or its leaders. Which brings us back to the original discussion of Submission. Submission (respect) be it for husband or Church. Submission is not hard when done in love and received in love.