Ephesians 5 and Unequal Conditions in Marriage

[Lady_Love]

I agree that this is how Jesus loves, therefore how a husband ought to love his wife. What I am asking is whether it is also how a wife ought to love her husband?

A woman should love her husband as Mary loved Jesus. Granted Mary was not Jesus’ wife in the physical realm but certainly her soul was espoused to Jesus in every way. Mary is the model for loving as a woman. She has confidence in Jesus, she trusts His judgements and ponders His words. She stands by and supports Him with her love in all things even to the foot of the cross. She is receptive and “takes whatever He gives and gives whatever He takes” (quote by Mother Teresa). Mary lives in total surrender to the Divine plan, even when it doesn’t make sense or when it is uncomfortable (ie. giving birth in a manger). Mary has profound respect for her Son as THE AUTHORITY.

Our husbands have been given authority over us by God, not to rule but to serve as Jesus did.

 

[chevalier]

Read corinthians 11 without focusing on the issue of headcoverings and focus on why Paul is stating that we have different roles in relation to each other,to God and the Church. It goes past culture and headcoverings and right into Genesis
Read Eph 5 and 1 Corinthians 11 and genesis 2 together.

Actually, I implied that more than headcoverings might have been cultural there.

 

[severus68]

A head covering had nothing to do with the thread., I was identifying a verse that is parallel to ephesians 5. From the top of my head. I wish I had my bible with me as I do not have internet at home.

So yoi di agree that Eve was crerated for Adam? That is the point severus.
Adam was created for God and Eve was created for Adam, very simple.

Of course Eve was created for God too. Let’s make this clearer. Eve was created as God wanted a companion for Adam but both are equal in the eyes of God and God did not create Eve to be under the authority of Adam.

 

[severus68]

Sorry about the grammer and spelling. I am on a blackberry and my nails keep hitting the wrong keys and I can hardly see the tiny words.
Severus try reading 1 Corinthians 11. In reference to Ephesians 5. The words I used are in 1 Corinthians 11;7-9 This is also in reference to Genesis 1:26-27. Gen.5:1 Gen 9:6.
Very straight forward

Please don’t presume I don’t know the Bible. As Catholics we do not take everything in the Bible literally and we let theologians interpret for us and do not all give our own interpretations. Please stop throwing vrses at me.

 

[severus68]

A woman should love her husband as Mary loved Jesus. Granted Mary was not Jesus’ wife in the physical realm but certainly her soul was espoused to Jesus in every way. Mary is the model for loving as a woman. She has confidence in Jesus, she trusts His judgements and ponders His words. She stands by and supports Him with her love in all things even to the foot of the cross. She is receptive and “takes whatever He gives and gives whatever He takes” (quote by Mother Teresa). Mary lives in total surrender to the Divine plan, even when it doesn’t make sense or when it is uncomfortable (ie. giving birth in a manger). Mary has profound respect for her Son as THE AUTHORITY.

Our husbands have been given authority over us by God, not to rule but to serve as Jesus did.

We should all love God and submit to Him and His love. Mary and Jesus as a husband and wife analogy???

No, God did not give men authority over women, however much sadly,some men and even more sadly, some women think so.

 

[Ruthcloud]

I did not presume you did not know the bible, these are your words not mine.
That is a straw man argument.
I also did note that we are created equal.
I also don’t know why you would need a theologian to read a simple couple of chapters in the bible for you.

 

[Walking_Home]

I did not presume you did not know the bible, these are your words not mine.
That is a straw man argument.
I also did note that we are created equal.
I also don’t know why you would need a theologian to read a simple couple of chapters in the bible for you

.​

Simple – we are not “sola scriptura” protestants. Our reading/understanding of scripture – is based on how the Church herself interprets the bible.

 

[Ruthcloud]

So we cant read simple verses in the bible?

 

[Ruthcloud]

This is the chapter in question
1 Corinthians 11
3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband[a] is the head of his wife,** and God is the head of Christ.

7 For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection[c] of God; but woman is the reflection[d] of man. 8 Indeed, man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for the sake of man.
-Pretty basic and this is rooted in Genesis
-The translation notes do mention “glory” I did not write this, Catholic translators did though.
translation notes C and D
1 Corinthians 11:7 Or glory
1 Corinthians 11:7 Or glory

11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man or man independent of woman. 12 For just as woman came from man, so man comes through woman; but all things come from God
-This shows our equality under God
-I really do not know what the fuss is about**

 

[Ruthcloud]

No, God did not give men authority over women, however much sadly,some men and even more sadly, some women think so.

-I hope not to offend, but last time I heard I was not allowed to be a priest,Archbishop or any authority in the church as a female
1 Peter 3:5
5 It was in this way long ago that the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by accepting the authority of their husbands.
1 Peter 3:1
Wives, in the same way, accept the authority of your husbands, so that, even if some of them do not obey the word, they may be won over without a word by their wives’ conduct,
Colossians 3:18
Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
Ephesians 5:22-26,32
22 Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior. 24 Just as the church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything, to their husbands.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word,
33 Each of you, however, should love his wife as himself, and a wife should respect her husband.
-I do not see any way to lawyer up in order to get around this. I don’t see this as a master slave thing at all…but i have seen the dysfunction when a married mother or father disregard this…the same would be true if this was abused in a slave mentality

 

[DL82]

As I feared, this thread has for mired in the age-old “submission” debate.

Can I please ask you to give some consideration to my original question, which is whether the love a wife should have for her husband should be conditional on, I.e. ambitious for, his imaging Christ in his life?

 

[Ruthcloud]

The problem with this question is that it is a little foreign to the subject…I am not married so I don’t know
I should ask the priest.

 

[severus68]

As I feared, this thread has for mired in the age-old “submission” debate.

Can I please ask you to give some consideration to my original question, which is whether the love a wife should have for her husband should be conditional on, I.e. ambitious for, his imaging Christ in his life?

I would say no. I prefer to follow what JPII said that it was mutual submission. Since marriage should be about love, there should not be conditions imposed by either partner. Each should however, respect and show his/her love for the other.

 

[severus68]

-I hope not to offend, but last time I heard I was not allowed to be a priest,Archbishop or any authority in the church as a female
1 Peter 3:5
5 It was in this way long ago that the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by accepting the authority of their husbands.
1 Peter 3:1
Wives, in the same way, accept the authority of your husbands, so that, even if some of them do not obey the word, they may be won over without a word by their wives’ conduct,
Colossians 3:18
Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
Ephesians 5:22-26,32
22 Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior. 24 Just as the church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything, to their husbands.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word,
33 Each of you, however, should love his wife as himself, and a wife should respect her husband.
-I do not see any way to lawyer up in order to get around this. I don’t see this as a master slave thing at all…but i have seen the dysfunction when a married mother or father disregard this…the same would be true if this was abused in a slave mentality

I will just say this - while a woman may not be a priest, she can be an authority in Church. Br JR has given us so many examples.

 

[DL82]

I would say no. I prefer to follow what JPII said that it was mutual submission. Since marriage should be about love, there should not be conditions imposed by either partner. Each should however, respect and show his/her love for the other.

What I’m thinking of here is something like the idea that men are goal oriented while women are relationship oriented. So a woman needs to know she is loved unconditionally as a person, while a man needs to know that he is useful and his relationships are tied into accomplishing something.

Clearly there has to be a balance - it would be very strange if a husband only ever related to his wife by preaching Christ and offering spiritual leadership, and never actually shared the ordinary everyday features of his personality. I am not sure whether a husband is supposed to expect or depend on unconditional acceptance from his wife, however. That just somehow seems unmasculine, like a failure of some sort or a reversal of the proper roles of each gender. At the same time, I know some women would think this was somehow hiding or holding back from their wives, and I don’t want to seem to be doing that either.

I just think there is something right about a wife saying to her husband, ‘I expect you to make this much money, or to pray this often with me, or to put aside this friend or this pastime or this way of thinking, that takes away from the good of our marriage’.

At the same time, such an outlook makes me feel lonely, it feels like the kind of affectionless Catholic masochism that comes very easily to someone like me who has self-destructive tendencies.

It doesn’t have to be based on Ephesians 5, I would just welcome some advice from more experienced husbands and wives.

 

[severus68]

What I’m thinking of here is something like the idea that men are goal oriented while women are relationship oriented. So a woman needs to know she is loved unconditionally as a person, while a man needs to know that he is useful and his relationships are tied into accomplishing something.

Clearly there has to be a balance - it would be very strange if a husband only ever related to his wife by preaching Christ and offering spiritual leadership, and never actually shared the ordinary everyday features of his personality. I am not sure whether a husband is supposed to expect or depend on unconditional acceptance from his wife, however. That just somehow seems unmasculine, like a failure of some sort or a reversal of the proper roles of each gender. At the same time, I know some women would think this was somehow hiding or holding back from their wives, and I don’t want to seem to be doing that either.

I just think there is something right about a wife saying to her husband, ‘I expect you to make this much money, or to pray this often with me, or to put aside this friend or this pastime or this way of thinking, that takes away from the good of our marriage’.

At the same time, such an outlook makes me feel lonely, it feels like the kind of affectionless Catholic masochism that comes very easily to someone like me who has self-destructive tendencies.

It doesn’t have to be based on Ephesians 5, I would just welcome some advice from more experienced husbands and wives.

Maybe that was how it was for some/many husbands in the past. You had fathers who never had that bomnd with their children. Still happens I suppose. A man/husband should also be in touch with his feelings. With women having the right to an education and being able to work outside the house, women too can help in the finances of the family. A woman should not look at a man as a potential husband on he basis of his ability to make money.

Both partners in a marriage have the right to accept certain behaviour from his/her spouse. It should not be a one way street.

I do not like making general assumptions. I do not think any human being can really love someone unconditionally. Dogs, yes.

 

[Ruthcloud]

This is not meant to be read in a wooden literalism, as we can’t love each other as Christ loves the Church, but is to be aspired to. It is about family order and peace in the home. Paul did not write this to fill in some extra time. There was conflict in the church of Corinth…serious problems.
About the submit or yield thing, this is done by both spouses from a position of strength, not weakness, many verses and writings state this. Jesus was nailed to a cross not from a position of weakness, but a position of strength.
To yield to a Husband has nothing to do with having an education or not going to work. If I told my husband that I am not going to go to work for any reason, and our finances are falling apart due to whatever reason, that is not yielding at all. If I on the flip side told my husband that I am not quitting my career in any circumstance and our children are not being cared for and the house is a wreck…I am not submitting to the needs of others and only thinking of myself. Ebb and flow.
If we can’t agree on which restaurant to eat in…If it would cause conflict then I let my FH decide, and if the food sucks I don’t rub it in his face. Maybe it goes the other way also, but if it is going to cause conflict I will let him take the lead and his ego does not get hurt

 

[severus68]

Maybe that was how it was for some/many husbands in the past. You had fathers who never had that bomnd with their children. Still happens I suppose. A man/husband should also be in touch with his feelings. With women having the right to an education and being able to work outside the house, women too can help in the finances of the family. A woman should not look at a man as a potential husband on he basis of his ability to make money.

Both partners in a marriage have the right to accept certain behaviour from his/her spouse. It should not be a one way street.

I do not like making general assumptions. I do not think any human being can really love someone unconditionally. Dogs, yes.

My apologies. I meant “expect certain behaviour…”.

 

[severus68]

This is not meant to be read in a wooden literalism, as we can’t love each other as Christ loves the Church, but is to be aspired to. It is about family order and peace in the home. Paul did not write this to fill in some extra time. There was conflict in the church of Corinth…serious problems.
About the submit or yield thing, this is done by both spouses from a position of strength, not weakness, many verses and writings state this. Jesus was nailed to a cross not from a position of weakness, but a position of strength.
To yield to a Husband has nothing to do with having an education or not going to work. If I told my husband that I am not going to go to work for any reason, and our finances are falling apart due to whatever reason, that is not yielding at all. If I on the flip side told my husband that I am not quitting my career in any circumstance and our children are not being cared for and the house is a wreck…I am not submitting to the needs of others and only thinking of myself. Ebb and flow.
If we can’t agree on which restaurant to eat in…If it would cause conflict then I let my FH decide, and if the food sucks I don’t rub it in his face. Maybe it goes the other way also, but if it is going to cause conflict I will let him take the lead and his ego does not get hurt

I was responding to someone else in the context of his post. So please don’t respond out of context. BTW I do not believe in one sided yeilding/submission

A marriage should not be about anyone’s ego.

 

[northsprings]

f=severusnoo8;10302571]Of coursefallEve was created for God too. Let’s make this clearer. Eve was created as God wanted a companion for Adam but both are equal in the eyes of God and God did not create Eve to be under the authority of Adam.

initially…no, he didnt…at least not at the outset

but according to the “fall of man” account as given in the book of genesis, GOD did in fact advise adam that he would toil and have to labor hard and to eve that she would suffer childbirth pangs and her husband would rule over her. READ your bible !