Epicurus' question

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Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is impotent.
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Whence, then, evil?
Ehrman, Bart D. God’s Problem How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question–Why We Suffer. New York: HarperOne, 2008.
Please excuse my limited understanding of this subject.
I apologize if this old (and outdated) philosopher’s question has been answered in this forum… I have a number of answers to this, but they seem… somehow unsatisfactory.

Who am I to label the Bible’s answers unsatisfactory? Well, I’m nobody… and I understand that it matters not what I think, but I hope that someone would be kind enough to offer their knowledge on the subject, and for it I will be very appreciative.

Thanks -
 
Please excuse my limited understanding of this subject.
I apologize if this old (and outdated) philosopher’s question has been answered in this forum… I have a number of answers to this, but they seem… somehow unsatisfactory.

Who am I to label the Bible’s answers unsatisfactory? Well, I’m nobody… and I understand that it matters not what I think, but I hope that someone would be kind enough to offer their knowledge on the subject, and for it I will be very appreciative.

Thanks -
The first problem is that things that WE consider to be evil (poverty, suffering, even death) in fact are not so, but are, properly viewed and used, sources of great good.

The second problem is that of human free-will. Yes, God could prevent evil by making all the angels and humans into mere robots or computers who are compelled to do good.

But being Love Himself, He knows that love is above all free-willed, and we being in His image and likeness must be similarly endowed with free-will if we are similarly to be capable of love.

It is not malevolent for God to grant us free-will, although our use of that free-will sometimes results in evil. Any more than it is for a parent to kick them out of home when they are abusing drugs or otherwise disruptive. Even though the result may be bad for the child.

A loving parent wishes no ill on the child in such a situation, and in fact hopes with every fibre of their being that kicking them out will bring them to their senses and do them good - although knowing that possibly it will not. That’s the opposite of malevolvence.

So no, by permitting evil God is not being malevolvent.
 
Firstly, LilyM, thank you for your quick reply.

My issue with the first problem:
I agree - these things CAN be (and often are) sources of good. But clearly not everyone sees that good. I’m sure that the people affected don’t feel too good. Sure, it allows for people, like perhaps you and me, to realize there is a need for charity and mission work - but that doesn’t reach everybody. Do these people really have to suffer so harshly just for you and I (who may not always even clear our plate) to remember to give a little?

Second problem: Free will doesn’t answer why children starve from lack of food in 3rd world country’s or why innocent people are violently killed by natural disasters.

I see your point that it isn’t malevolent for God to allow us free-will. But I’m sure there are people everywhere praying for people in these predicaments - does He not wish to protect them in anyway, even if it means something as simple as allowing their body to produce more endorphins than normal to deal with pain they might feel? Starvation is a long and drawn out process…

But God isn’t malevolent. Because he is BOTH, as you said, willing AND able.

So would a loving father starve your brother to death so that YOU may learn a lesson in love? I’m just having a difficult time grasping that… I’m sorry if I’m being empty-minded… In my defense, it was a long day…
 
Read John Paul 2’s Salvifici Doloris. Suffering can be a source of good for the sufferer themselves, not just those around them.

My brother may be willing to use the sufferings entailed in his own starvation, unite them with Christ’s sufferings, for the salvation of souls and his own sanctification. Many saints have done this with their own various illnesses and sufferings.

As to why suffering is not INVARIABLY used for good - that gets back to free-will, I’m afraid. We have the free will to use our sufferings for good or ill.
 
Read John Paul 2’s Salvifici Doloris. Suffering can be a source of good for the sufferer themselves, not just those around them.

My brother may be willing to use the sufferings entailed in his own starvation, unite them with Christ’s sufferings, for the salvation of souls and his own sanctification. Many saints have done this with their own various illnesses and sufferings.

As to why suffering is not INVARIABLY used for good - that gets back to free-will, I’m afraid. We have the free will to use our sufferings for good or ill.
I see… It’s just - what if those people don’t even know God? How then can it be good for them… Thanks again for your responsiveness. I really do appreciate it. I’ll look into your suggested reading.
 
I see… It’s just - what if those people don’t even know God? How then can it be good for them… Thanks again for your responsiveness. I really do appreciate it. I’ll look into your suggested reading.
Everybody knows God to one extent or another. He writes his law on every human heart, and gives each one grace sufficient to know and follow him.

But what I don’t understand is why it bothers you that a child would starve to death, but not that an old woman would die of old age. In both cases they are dead, and their loved ones will anguish over their loss.

Furthermore, would you disallow starvation from natural means, but allow it if bandits stole the food? Would you disallow drowning from natural floods, but allow it if crooked contractors built a defective dam upstream? Where do you draw the line so that it is not arbitrary?
 
www.drbo.org:
Matthew 5,1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain, and when he was set down, his disciples came unto him. 2 And opening his mouth, he taught them, saying: 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land. 5 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. 6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. 7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called children of God. 10 Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: 12 Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you. 13 You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt lose its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is good for nothing any more but to be cast out, and to be trodden on by men. 14 You are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but upon a candlestick, that it may shine to all that are in the house.
All these things Jesus is teaching us that make us “Blessed” seem bad don’t they? So, is it better to endure these Blessings in this life if it means our “reward is very great in heaven”? Which do we want? Earthly comfort or eternal bliss?
 
All these things Jesus is teaching us that make us “Blessed” seem bad don’t they? So, is it better to endure these Blessings in this life if it means our “reward is very great in heaven”? Which do we want? Earthly comfort or eternal bliss?
Weeellll… I can’t agree that everyone does know God to whatever extent. I seem to remember learning in college about a tribe that worshipped a radio because troops stationed there in the past used the radio and and food ‘magically’ fell from the sky (dropped from a plane of course.).

There are people that honestly don’t know our ‘version’ of God.

I think there is a ‘Straw Man’ here. I’m not saying that God should end suffering for hungry children but not aging people (though the amount of suffering in invariably differnt). The examples I gave focus to were simply to get my point across. I could reverse it - would you desire to save the elderly but not the children? Of course not- you’d save them both from pain if you could.

The only way the method of starvation matters is that you can find reason for one (free-will) but not the other.
I wish neither would happen at all.

I never said that I would allow any suffering at any point and I never mentioned anything to do with old women’s death as a preference.I certainly draw any lines. If anything - I’m ASKING where this line is and how I can rectify that with what I’m seeing. Maybe I should have been more clear…
I do tend to only allude to my thoughts rather than simply state them… Sorry for that.

As for the beatitudes…
They are in reference to the things that happen to the “salt of the earth”.Those people doing things in"His name". Starving people in 3rd world countries are much too busy being hungry than to do things in the name of someone they do not even know who also happens to be allowing them to suffer.

But I also see your point. God blesses those willing to endure hardships following Jesus as the prophets before them did. But here’s a question, and I’m just thinking outloud here, why aren’t we suffering? As opposed to them, I mean…
 
Please excuse my limited understanding of this subject.
I apologize if this old (and outdated) philosopher’s question has been answered in this forum… I have a number of answers to this, but they seem… somehow unsatisfactory.

Who am I to label the Bible’s answers unsatisfactory? Well, I’m nobody… and I understand that it matters not what I think, but I hope that someone would be kind enough to offer their knowledge on the subject, and for it I will be very appreciative.

Thanks -
the problem is the able, but not willing = malevolent.

allowing the free willed to exercise that free will is not malevolent, even when they make choices you dont like.

the root of the problem is really that we dont know good from evil, in fact the attempt to do so, by eve, precipitated the fall.

some people claim we can know good from bad by common agreement or some imposed standard. thats like the blind leading the blind. if 1 man doesn’t know good from evil, how can 1000 men know?

the only way to look at it with out claiming some actual knowledge of good from evil, is simply to acknowledge that what G-d does is intrinsically good, even if we dont know the who, what, and why of it.

not very satisfying intellectually, but thats the problem, our intellect is unable to comprehend good and evil.
 
Weeellll… I can’t agree that everyone does know God to whatever extent. I seem to remember learning in college about a tribe that worshipped a radio because troops stationed there in the past used the radio and and food ‘magically’ fell from the sky (dropped from a plane of course.).
Do most people have consciences, however imperfect? That’s the law of God written on their hearts. Are there good people in every society? That’s people responding to God as best they can.
There are people that honestly don’t know our ‘version’ of God.
Of course they don’t have God’s full revelation, but they have enough to have a sense of good and evil, and many of them, at least, choose good.
I think there is a ‘Straw Man’ here. I’m not saying that God should end suffering for hungry children but not aging people (though the amount of suffering in invariably differnt). The examples I gave focus to were simply to get my point across. I could reverse it - would you desire to save the elderly but not the children? Of course not- you’d save them both from pain if you could.
The only way the method of starvation matters is that you can find reason for one (free-will) but not the other.
I wish neither would happen at all.
Then what you really want is for people to be created directly in heaven.

And yet the angels were created directly in heaven, and 1/3 of them rebelled. So your solution seems to be no solution after all.
I never said that I would allow any suffering at any point and I never mentioned anything to do with old women’s death as a preference.I certainly draw any lines. If anything - I’m ASKING where this line is and how I can rectify that with what I’m seeing. Maybe I should have been more clear…
I do tend to only allude to my thoughts rather than simply state them… Sorry for that.
Not a problem. I’m just engaging you in a dialog to try and get you to think your position through to the logical conclusion. Would you agree that the logical conclusion is that God should create people directly in heaven?
 
the problem is the able, but not willing = malevolent.

allowing the free willed to exercise that free will is not malevolent, even when they make choices you dont like.

the root of the problem is really that we dont know good from evil, in fact the attempt to do so, by eve, precipitated the fall.

some people claim we can know good from bad by common agreement or some imposed standard. thats like the blind leading the blind. if 1 man doesn’t know good from evil, how can 1000 men know?

the only way to look at it with out claiming some actual knowledge of good from evil, is simply to acknowledge that what G-d does is intrinsically good, even if we dont know the who, what, and why of it.

not very satisfying intellectually, but thats the problem, our intellect is unable to comprehend good and evil.
I buy the “free will” argument in so far as it applies. However, as stated earlier it doesn’t apply to everything.I think that we can comprehend good and evil.our understanding of that would be our morals, wouldn’t it? We use this fact as a proof of God’s existence: our guilt when we do something wrong or our natural inclination not to murder.
 
Human depravity is not total in that we can’t even tell right from wrong. This contradicts both scripture and human experience. Our depravity is that we suffer a division in ourselves. The lower, sinful nature is in rebellion against our conscience.

Concerning the problem of evil, as noted, there are many answers. While none give us a complete understanding of pain, what they offer us is the idea that the existence of an all-good and all-powerful God is not contradictory with the existence of evil. If we know it isn’t contradictory, we can have faith that it makes sense in the grand scheme of things.

We know that evil came into the world because of sin. If the effects of this evil were to be completely removed without the source first being removed, humanity would certainly mistake the current state for home. Evil tells us that something has gone terribly wrong.
In the light of this idea, isn’t it much better that all humanity suffer temporal evil than for men to die in ignorance about the need for reconciliation?

So suffering isn’t good only because it offers people a chance to practice virtue. It also reminds everyone that this is not home, and helps us to long for it. So, in my mind, one can draw one of two conclusions from the existence of evil: One, that because of this evil, perfect good doesn’t; or two, that because evil exists, there must have been something much like the Doctrine of the Fall. If a man sees a large crater filled with water, is it more reasonable to say that earth had never been in its place at all or that this is a scar suffered from some great cosmic catastrophe?

It must also be noted that evil isn’t a problem at all if a perfectly good God does not exist. In other words, whenever we say a particular thing is evil, it means that it does not meet the standard of good which we recognize. I would say the fact that the terms “all-good”, “all-powerful”, and “evil” have any meaning at all suggests the existence of a perfect standard.

I realize this may be a very truncated version (and a poorly worded one at that) of these thoughts. Please forgive me. If you’re looking for a real genius’ thoughts on this, I would suggest picking up C.S. Lewis’ The Problem of Pain. And please, don’t read it just once. This book must be read over at at least three times, in my opinion.
 
Do most people have consciences, however imperfect? That’s the law of God written on their hearts. Are there good people in every society? That’s people responding to God as best they can.

Of course they don’t have God’s full revelation, but they have enough to have a sense of good and evil, and many of them, at least, choose good.

Then what you really want is for people to be created directly in heaven.

And yet the angels were created directly in heaven, and 1/3 of them rebelled. So your solution seems to be no solution after all.

Not a problem. I’m just engaging you in a dialog to try and get you to think your position through to the logical conclusion. Would you agree that the logical conclusion is that God should create people directly in heaven?
Thank you VociMike for being so thorough.

Ok… I can’t offer an opinion as far people responding to God as best they can. My point was received though - sure whether a response to God or not, I believe we do have a sense of right and wrong.

What I want? It’s simply a better understanding of why things happen… I realize that God has His reasons… You’ve misunderstood something though… free-will has been the established cause of people suffering from the hands of other people. This doesn’t apply to natural disasters and lack of resources… What then might the cause be? Why shouldn’t I suffer rather than these innocent?

Also, I never suggested a solution. Yes, I’d like for there to be less suffering, but I don’t have a say in how God conducts his business… I don’t really even care about HOW it’s done - it’s more about why isn’t God doing anything about it?

So I’m afraid I would disagree in regard to whether God should create us in heaven. What change would that bring about? It’s really about - why wouldn’t God allow resources to grow/be supplied to the peoples who need it? Why wouldn’t He give comfort to the innocent? Or better yet, protect them?
 
I buy the “free will” argument in so far as it applies. However, as stated earlier it doesn’t apply to everything.I think that we can comprehend good and evil.our understanding of that would be our morals, wouldn’t it? We use this fact as a proof of God’s existence: our guilt when we do something wrong or our natural inclination not to murder.
In Romans it tells us God gives His laws into the hearts of men - even if they were never instructed of His ways.
So even athiests have a sense of good and bad.

Knowing what is good or bad is not an instinct absent of an Author - because if there wasn’t a Mighty God Who created us, there would be no conscience or good and bad - and in fact - there wouldnt be intelligence to which we were created to emulate [altho ours is faulted]
The soul chooses good and bad. It is the soul that is judged by those choices.

If we came from an accident - its unlikely we would have rules or laws of civility.
Hi ya WM. 😉 :tiphat: Nice to see you in here.
Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is impotent.
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Whence, then, evil?
Its simple really.

God is able, but He chooses instead to give us the free reign to accept the consequences of what we choose … and i say we as tho all men were in the Garden because we are fallen - yet Adam and Eve were created perfect without sin… so how much more could God have done for us?
  • I am going philosophical now]
    He is always waiting for us to trust in Him that He will give a miracle or let us choose to use what we suffer for the betterment of our souls.
Suffering does bring us close to God - because the Bible says He will chastize His children.

WE have no idea how it would feel if God were using us like sock puppets doing His will at whim. And then where is the friendship and love we could share with Him if we are given everything at the cost of losing the ability to choose to love Him in return.

Its a choice. Pain, suffering, and all things stemming from evil [which the serpent told Eve we would know] is exactly what we gained.

Is God unable - or is man too willfull??

God gave the choice. Instead of throwing away humanity with Adam and Eve, however; He choose to do something satan couldnt comprehend. He died for us.
Understand something - this would seem impossible for satan to comprehend GOD dying this way - since he knew Him on the throne and might…OR maybe satan knew all too well HE would do this - and so he relished the torture The Lord suffered on our account.
HOW humble He was - even to the evil of the world - uncomplaining of that done to Him - Who never once wanted evil for us. He took it upon Himself - HE Who did not have to.

God - the Mighty One, the Holy One, the One Who is perfect - came to earth in flesh and died the most painful death to show that even tho sin cannot enter into the abode of Heaven and touch Him - He would willingly come to earth as the Son and take on the horrendous beatings and crucifixion for the reparation of sins so we could again - with full will, come to Him eternally…
 
The fact that you can say, “evil is justified as good all the time,” means that you do, in fact, know good from evil. Certainly, if you did not, your sentence would be utter nonsense.

If a man commits an atrocity without batting an eye, it does not mean he did so innocently. It doesn’t even necessarily mean he thought it was right to do. The curious thing about humans isn’t that we confuse bad and good, but that we know good and don’t do it. Common human experience will tell you this. It just means that, for whatever reason, his heart was hardened to the point of allowing him to do such actions. In the examples you cited, those reasons are a mixture hate, greed, pride, and selfishness; all of which we recognize as evil. That some men pluck out their eyes does not mean none can see.

You assume that these men would be shocked by other atrocities. This means that they know right from wrong. If they don’t agree that they themselves commit atrocities, it is because they have blinded themselves with arrogance.
 
Just as an aside, when man fell, he brought the world down with him. The extrinsic evil of the world can be traced to the Fall of man.
 
The fact that you can say, “evil is justified as good all the time,” means that you do, in fact, know good from evil. Certainly, if you did not, your sentence would be utter nonsense.
“evil is justified as good” doesnt mean one actually knows good from evil, rather that one justifies acts people think are evil as acts people think are good.

thats the problem, they really dont know either.
If a man commits an atrocity without batting an eye, it does not mean he did so innocently
nor does it mean he did so purposefully.
It doesn’t even necessarily mean he thought it was right to do.
all the atrocoties that i can thinnk of were committed by people thinking they were doing right, or necessary.
The curious thing about humans isn’t that we confuse bad and good, but that we know good and don’t do it. Common human experience will tell you this.
then please give an example of an atrocity where the people performing the deeds knew it was evil, and yet continued to do so.
It just means that, for whatever reason, his heart was hardened to the point of allowing him to do such actions. In the examples you cited, those reasons are a mixture hate, greed, pride, and selfishness; all of which we recognize as evil. That some men pluck out their eyes does not mean none can see.
check your history, because that wasn’t the reason that any of these people committed these atrocities. those are the reasons we assigned later.

we called it hateful, etc.

they called it necessary.

they justified it.
You assume that these men would be shocked by other atrocities. This means that they know right from wrong. If they don’t agree that they themselves commit atrocities, it is because they have blinded themselves with arrogance.
it doesn’t mean they know right from wrong, quite the opposite, it means that they have no clue what is right or wrong at all. one cant be blinded by arrogance, one can justify his actions, while condemning his neighbors

this is the whole problem with relative moralism, its relative to whatever the group with the power desires.
 
I’m sorry, but you are missing the point.

If you are right that we don’t know right from wrong, than any time you used the word evil or good it would have absolutely no relationship to reality. However, your argument uses the fact that evil is passed off as good as it’s premise. Your argument is as follows:
  1. People commit evil acts and say they are good
  2. Therefore we do not know what good from evil are
If your conclusion is true, your premise has absolutely no truth value. You effectively saw off the branch you’re standing on.

Men choose bad over good all of the time. Many drug addicts know full well that what they are doing is wrong, and admit it candidly. Yet they refuse help. Some people do things because they know it is wrong. People do things that are wrong to get a particular reaction from others. A man may threaten to kill himself so that a woman will remain in a relationship with him. If he did not know this was evil, he would not think that it would cause the woman to try and stop it. It is a delusion of the modern mindset to think that everyone does what they think is right.

Do you doubt that Hitler was motivated by a hate of Jews? The tragedy in Rwanda was motivated by hate as well. North Korea’s Kim Jong il ihas committed atrocities out of pure lust for power.

You said the fact that some condemn some evil but justify their own means that they have NO clue what good or evil is. However, this is bad logic. At most, it means they have an IMPERFECT idea of what good and evil is. Imperfect does not equal nothing.

Aside from that, again, the argument is nonsensical. Your premise would be utterly meaningless if your conclusion is right, and therefore your premise would no longer support your conclusion.
 
I’m sorry, but you are missing the point.

If you are right that we don’t know right from wrong, than any time you used the word evil or good it would have absolutely no relationship to reality.
i understand, the argument is made quite often here.

your right, they have no relationship to reality, as artifacts of human ethics.
However, your argument uses the fact that evil is passed off as good as it’s premise. Your argument is as follows:
  1. People commit evil acts and say they are good
  2. Therefore we do not know what good from evil are
If your conclusion is true, your premise has absolutely no truth value. You effectively saw off the branch you’re standing on.
what? evil is not passed off as good, the people involved in those atrocities, believed they were doing what was good, right, necessary, etc.

how do you get that? if one knows good from evil, than one wouldn’t confuse the two.

the conclusion necessarily follows from the premise, seemingly

but further im not trying to make an aristotelian proposition, so why are you framing it that way?

im talking about what we literally see, we have pics of their social behavior, and their diaries, those people in the documentary were quite normal.
Men choose bad over good all of the time. Many drug addicts know full well that what they are doing is wrong, and admit it candidly. Yet they refuse help.
thats called addiction, not an act of free will.
Some people do things because they know it is wrong. People do things that are wrong to get a particular reaction from others.
those people are called kids 🙂
A man may threaten to kill himself so that a woman will remain in a relationship with him. If he did not know this was evil, he would not think that it would cause the woman to try and stop it.
whaqt does evil have to do with emotional manipulation?
It is a delusion of the modern mindset to think that everyone does what they think is right.
so far your examples are of individual behavior, not sociological groups, a man doesnt commit an atrocity alone, at least not the ones we have been discussing,

that aside, unless one is criminal in nature, people do what they think is right, the individuals who dont are generally considered mentally ill.
Do you doubt that Hitler was motivated by a hate of Jews?
hitler didn’t stand on the ramps, culling slaves from those to be exterminated.
The tragedy in Rwanda was motivated by hate as well.
the tribesman who conducted the atrocities, acted in accord, hardly a reflection of personal hate.
North Korea’s Kim Jong il ihas committed atrocities out of pure lust for power.
yet he did not do a single one himself, he is supported by a ruling class of people, in a very feudal system. those people are the enactors of policy.
You said the fact that some condemn some evil but justify their own means that they have NO clue what good or evil is. However, this is bad logic. At most, it means they have an IMPERFECT idea of what good and evil is. Imperfect does not equal nothing.
one can always randomly do the right or wrong thing, that doesn’t equate to actually knowing what the correct thing is.
Aside from that, again, the argument is nonsensical. Your premise would be utterly meaningless if your conclusion is right, and therefore your premise would no longer support your conclusion.
i still dont understand how you are getting that. how exactly does the conclusion not follow from the premise?

i think you are mistaking ‘passing off evil for good’ as ‘believing an evil act to be good’

check out abortion, they claim its done for good reasons all the time, but it doesn’t stand up to examination.
 
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