episcopal and catholic

[markbar]

I went to an Episcopal mass and found it to be very Catholic. Are they part of the Catholic Church? I was told they were Protestant but they seem differant from other churches.

 

[GKC]

I went to an Episcopal mass and found it to be very Catholic. Are they part of the Catholic Church? I was told they were Protestant but they seem differant from other churches.

No, the Episcopal Church is not part of the Roman Catholic Church. And, generally,is moving away from the RCC at warp speed.

I agree that they are different from many other churches, though.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

 

[1ke]

I went to an Episcopal mass and found it to be very Catholic.

They have a liturgical tradition that varies from very similar to the Catholic liturgy (high church) to one that does not resemble the Catholic liturgy (low church).

The Episcopal Church does not have a Mass-- they do not have valid Holy Orders or Sacraments-- and you should not receive communion in any non-Catholic ecclesial community.

Are they part of the Catholic Church?

No. They are visibly separated from the headship of the Bishop of Rome.

The Episcopal Church is a member of the Anglican Communion.

I was told they were Protestant but they seem differant from other churches.

They are indeed Protestant. And, their theology, liturgy, etc, will vary widely depending upon local leadership.

 

[Maryflorida]

The may appear to look similar, but theologically are very different.

 

[GKC]

The may appear to look similar, but theologically are very different.

Some Anglicans (even including a vanishing number of Episcopalians) are not all that far from the RCC, saving the Papal issues.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

 

[Maryflorida]

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England, founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th Century.

If you are a Roman Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jeasus Christ the son of God, and that it has not changed since that time.

 

[GKC]

I am not a protestant Episcopalian,or any other sort of Episcopalian, but even for those poor souls, what you say is historically incorrect. The Episcopal Church in this country was not founded by Seabury. It was, indeed, an offshoot from the Church of England, dating here from 1607. Seabury was the first consecrated bishop in the Episcopal Church in this country, no bishops having been resident in the colonies, through the post Revolutionary War period. The colonies were under the episcopal care of the Bishop of London, until the separation caused by the War. After the War, the Episcopal Church approached the Church of England, to have Seabury consecrated, as the first resident bishop of the Episcopal Church . He was refused, and the first bishop of the Episcopal Church in this country received his consecration at the hands of Non-Juror bishops in Scotland, in 1785.

Deep in history is a good thing.

And some Anglicans affirm doctrine very similar to what is affirmed by the RCC. Which was the point of my previous post.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England, founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th Century.

If you are a Roman Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jeasus Christ the son of God, and that it has not changed since that time.

 

[Maryflorida]

Thank you for that history. I was reading literature from a Catholic church I attended in the 1960’s, and it gives the age of many religious organizations. I wonder now how true the rest of this literature is. I’m reading that… if you are:

Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

if you are Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

if you are Mormon (Latter Day Saints) Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1829.

if you belong to one of the religious organizations known as “Church of the nazarene”, “Pentecostal gospel”, “Holiness church”, “Pilgrim Holiness Church”, Jehovah’s Witnesses", your religion was one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past fifty to one-hundred years.

What is your view on this?

Thank you.

 

[GKC]

You are very welcome.

I can only speak to the Methodist one, though it would be easy to look the others up.
Both John and Charles Wesley were Anglican priests, and remained so until their deaths. They did, along with some others, establish a pietistic movement within Anglicanism which gradually grew to a separate church, being completely separated from the Church of England by about 1795, around 4 years after the last Wesley brother died…

Beware of cartoon history.

GKC

Thank you for that history. I was reading literature from a Catholic church I attended in the 1960’s, and it gives the age of many religious organizations. I wonder now how true the rest of this literature is. I’m reading that… if you are:

Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

if you are Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

if you are Mormon (Latter Day Saints) Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1829.

if you belong to one of the religious organizations known as “Church of the nazarene”, “Pentecostal gospel”, “Holiness church”, “Pilgrim Holiness Church”, Jehovah’s Witnesses", your religion was one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past fifty to one-hundred years.

What is your view on this?

Thank you.

 

[promethius]

I went to an Episcopal mass and found it to be very Catholic. Are they part of the Catholic Church? I was told they were Protestant but they seem differant from other churches.

I should point out that per Pope Benedict’s speech in Brazil, ALL protestant churches are, to a degree, Catholic, insofar as they have adhered to the portion of Catholic (aka God’s) truth which they have preserved unchanged from their ultimate roots in the Catholic faith. In THAT way, they are catholic.

The high church Episcopalians/Anglicans hold on to a high degree of Catholic truth inhereted from the church, so in that regard they are MORE catholic than most other protestant churches. I’ve even had some very engagind discussions with Episcopalians who were quite proud to label themselves as a catholic body in connection with the Catholic church (could never seem to get them to make that final leap back home to Mother Church though).

However, as has been noted, they are catholic by extension of Catholic truth, but not by true communion in the Sacraments of the church. They do not have holy orders, and therefore they do not have valid Communion, and as a result they do not have a mass, but rather a service. While our two faiths can be very cooperative, they are not, as yet, compatible or comparible.

 

[GKC]

As an Anglo-Catholic Anglican, I agree with much of this. But not all. All RCs should affirm that Anglicans do not have valid orders, with all that implies. Anglicans, you will understand, may have a different view of the matter (and the intent, and the form and the minister, too). I’ll be at our 1030 Mass tomorrow. And yes, I’m familiar with Apostolicae Curae. Very familiar.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

I should point out that per Pope Benedict’s speech in Brazil, ALL protestant churches are, to a degree, Catholic, insofar as they have adhered to the portion of Catholic (aka God’s) truth which they have preserved unchanged from their ultimate roots in the Catholic faith. In THAT way, they are catholic.

The high church Episcopalians/Anglicans hold on to a high degree of Catholic truth inhereted from the church, so in that regard they are MORE catholic than most other protestant churches. I’ve even had some very engagind discussions with Episcopalians who were quite proud to label themselves as a catholic body in connection with the Catholic church (could never seem to get them to make that final leap back home to Mother Church though).

However, as has been noted, they are catholic by extension of Catholic truth, but not by true communion in the Sacraments of the church. They do not have holy orders, and therefore they do not have valid Communion, and as a result they do not have a mass, but rather a service. While our two faiths can be very cooperative, they are not, as yet, compatible or comparible.

 

[gamewell45]

They have a liturgical tradition that varies from very similar to the Catholic liturgy (high church) to one that does not resemble the Catholic liturgy (low church).

The Episcopal Church does not have a Mass-- they do not have valid Holy Orders or Sacraments-- and you should not receive communion in any non-Catholic ecclesial community.

No. They are visibly separated from the headship of the Bishop of Rome.

The Episcopal Church is a member of the Anglican Communion.

They are indeed Protestant. And, their theology, liturgy, etc, will vary widely depending upon local leadership.

We do have Mass; It may not be what you consider Mass, but my church (High Church) has 3 Masses on Sunday.

 

[promethius]

We do have Mass; It may not be what you consider Mass, but my church (High Church) has 3 Masses on Sunday.

Sorry, you can call it what you like, but from the catholic perspective the catechism defines the mass as “The Eucharist or principal sacramental celebration of the Church, established by Jesus at the Last Supper, in which the mystery of our salvation through participation in the sacrificial death and glorious resurrection of Christ is renewed and accomplished.”

Thus it is not appropriate for any catholic, since Episcopal orders are not recognized as valid, to call the worship service of the Episcopal church by the name “Mass.” It’s not a sign of disrespect to the Episcopal church, but rather a sign of supreme respect for the Eucharist. I would expect no less if our situations were reversed in this matter.

 

[gamewell45]

Sorry, you can call it what you like, but from the catholic perspective the catechism defines the mass as “The Eucharist or principal sacramental celebration of the Church, established by Jesus at the Last Supper, in which the mystery of our salvation through participation in the sacrificial death and glorious resurrection of Christ is renewed and accomplished.”

Thus it is not appropriate for any catholic, since Episcopal orders are not recognized as valid, to call the worship service of the Episcopal church by the name “Mass.” It’s not a sign of disrespect to the Episcopal church, but rather a sign of supreme respect for the Eucharist. I would expect no less if our situations were reversed in this matter.

We don’t look at it from a Catholic perspective of course; it really isn’t our concern whether the Catholic Church recognizes it or not. The important thing here is that the Episcopal Church does recognize it as being a valid Mass.

While i know that the Catholic Church frowns on Catholics partaking in Communion in any church outside of their own, you might be amazed at how many visiting Catholics attending Mass at our Parish, receive Communion as well. Understand not all of them do that; some come forward for a blessing from the Priest; others remain in the pews, but we do have some to do receive it.

 

[Holly3278]

The Episcopal Church is not Catholic. Do not receive the Eucharist there as they do not have a valid Eucharist just as they do not have valid priests and bishops. You can see the following encyclical for more information:

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13curae.htm

 

[gmcbroom]

GKC, You mentioned non juror bishops from ireland earlier in the post. So is that an Anglican Bishops from Scotland?

 

[gamewell45]

The Episcopal Church is not Catholic. Do not receive the Eucharist there as they do not have a valid Eucharist just as they do not have valid priests and bishops. You can see the following encyclical for more information:

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13curae.htm

Understand Holly, that we are not searching out Catholics to attend Mass and receive Communion in the Episcopal Church; but if they are present and wish to receive the Sacrament, we will not deny them.

 

[GKC]

GKC, You mentioned non juror bishops from ireland earlier in the post. So is that an Anglican Bishops from Scotland?

Nope, not exactly. It was what one might call the absolute first case of a Continuing Anglican Church. Sort of. After the Glorious Revolution, 1688, there was a split in the Church of England over whether William and Mary were legally the Sovereigns, in that some of the bishops felt their oaths to James II precluded their swearing loyalty to William. The then Archbishop of Canterbury and 8 other English bishops said no, they couldn’t do it, and went off to Scotland where they were joined by most of the Scottish bishops and some guy from Ireland. They ran a sort of parallel Church until it all petered out around the end of the 1700s. Too bad. I liked them.

The main problem with the CoE consecrating +Seabury was a similar one to what started up the Non-jurors; Seabury couldn’t swear an oath to the British Crown. So he went to the Non-Jurors.

GKC

 

[GKC]

We don’t look at it from a Catholic perspective of course; it really isn’t our concern whether the Catholic Church recognizes it or not. The important thing here is that the Episcopal Church does recognize it as being a valid Mass.

While i know that the Catholic Church frowns on Catholics partaking in Communion in any church outside of their own, you might be amazed at how many visiting Catholics attending Mass at our Parish, receive Communion as well. Understand not all of them do that; some come forward for a blessing from the Priest; others remain in the pews, but we do have some to do receive it.

Oh, I look at it from a Catholic perspective. But not a Roman Catholic one. RCs should and do see it otherwise.

I’ve never seen a RC receive at our altar rail, but I have seen blessings.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus, posterus traditus Anglicanus

 

[1ke]

We don’t look at it from a Catholic perspective of course; it really isn’t our concern whether the Catholic Church recognizes it or not. The important thing here is that the Episcopal Church does recognize it as being a valid Mass.

Since the OP is a Catholic, and he is posting on a Catholic message board asking about whether or not this is a Catholic mass, indeed what the Catholic Church thinks about it is the important thing here.

While i know that the Catholic Church frowns on Catholics partaking in Communion in any church outside of their own,

It is not “frowned upon.” It is forbidden. Those who do this commit a gravely immoral act, a sin.

you might be amazed at how many visiting Catholics attending Mass at our Parish, receive Communion as well.

The number of ignorant Catholics in the world is not a source of amazement, but rather a source of deep sorrow.