episcopal and catholic

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GKC said:
As an Anglo-Catholic Anglican, I agree with much of this. But not all. All RCs should affirm that Anglicans do not have valid orders, with all that implies. Anglicans, you will understand, may have a different view of the matter (and the intent, and the form and the minister, too). I’ll be at our 1030 Mass tomorrow. And yes, I’m familiar with Apostolicae Curae. Very familiar.
GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus
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That’s an understatement! GKC’s the master of A.C.!! 😃
 
GKC said:
I’ve never seen a RC receive at our altar rail, but I have seen blessings.
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Actually, to add to what 1ke said, they shouldn’t even receive blessings, since the Catholic church teaches that direct blessings are a function of Holy Orders. Those without valid Holy Orders can only beseech God to give a blessing rather than bestowing one themselves, and I strongly doubt that is the context you are speaking of here.

I think the confusion wherein catholics present themselves for blessings is due to poor catechesis regarding communion in the catholic church, both of the laity and the extraordinary ministers thinking that lay people can somehow give a blessing during the communion right. That is not correct. Anyone seeking a direct blessing in the Catholic mass should present themselves to the priest and only the priest.
 
Fair enough. Spread the word among the RC faithful.

My own rector’s position is that he performs no inquisitions at the rail. If someone presents himself/herself, in a position suggesting knowledge of what is going on, he will communicate/bless the individual, as appropriate.

The context of which I speak is of an ordained Anglican priest, with valid orders.

Yes, I know.

GKC
promethius said:
Actually, to add to what 1ke said, they shouldn’t even receive blessings, since the Catholic church teaches that direct blessings are a function of Holy Orders. Those without valid Holy Orders can only beseech God to give a blessing rather than bestowing one themselves, and I strongly doubt that is the context you are speaking of here.

I think the confusion wherein catholics present themselves for blessings is due to poor catechesis regarding communion in the catholic church, both of the laity and the extraordinary ministers thinking that lay people can somehow give a blessing during the communion right. That is not correct. Anyone seeking a direct blessing in the Catholic mass should present themselves to the priest and only the priest.
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GKC said:
Fair enough. Spread the word among the RC faithful.

My own rector’s position is that he performs no inquisitions at the rail. If someone presents himself/herself, in a position suggesting knowledge of what is going on, he will communicate/bless the individual, as appropriate.

The context of which I speak is of an ordained Anglican priest, with valid orders.

Yes, I know.

GKC
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Ha ha, I think you beat me to the punch on the valid orders part. 👍

I wouldn’t suggest an inquisition during a service (any service) either. It’s really up to the catholic to take up their required responsibility to both learn and follow church teaching. It’s unfortunate that there are some poorly catechized catholics out there, but alas, we’re a hospital for sinners, not a home for Saints.
 
promethius said:
Actually, to add to what 1ke said, they shouldn’t even receive blessings, since the Catholic church teaches that direct blessings are a function of Holy Orders.
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And don’t I know it. I took a lot of cr*p from my family when I would neither receive communion nor go up for a blessing at my aunt’s wedding. As all the rest of my dad’s family is Episcopalian and I am the lone convert to the Catholic Church, they just couldn’t understand why I had to make “such a big deal” and stay in my pew.

Ugh!
 
gamewell45 said:
Understand Holly, that we are not searching out Catholics to attend Mass and receive Communion in the Episcopal Church; but if they are present and wish to receive the Sacrament, we will not deny them.
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It is a blessing when I have RC family members visit and we all are able to share the body and blood of our Lord and Savior together at the Episcopal Church.

This might not be the party line for the RCC, but so be it.

God Bless!
 
markbar said:
I went to an Episcopal mass and found it to be very Catholic. Are they part of the Catholic Church?
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As others have said, no. They are the American branch of the Anglican Communion. If you went to a sevice that seemed “very Catholic,” chances are you went to a “high church” service.
markbar said:
I was told they were Protestant but they seem differant from other churches.
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They are, most certainly, Protestant. Interesting history, though, immediately following the American Revolution, i.e., how they came to “replace” the Church of England in the former American colonies.
 
1ke said:
Since the OP is a Catholic, and he is posting on a Catholic message board asking about whether or not this is a Catholic mass, indeed what the Catholic Church thinks about it is the important thing here.
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I guess in this case, we’ll have to agree to disagree. 🙂
 
I would think that the farther the Episcopal leadership decends into craziness, the more the conservative ones will identify themselves as “Catholic.”
 
ralphinal said:
I would think that the farther the Episcopal leadership decends into craziness, the more the conservative ones will identify themselves as “Catholic.”
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Not necessarily. The more evangelical ones won’t.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus
 
GKC said:
Not necessarily. The more evangelical ones won’t.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus
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oops. I should have mentioned the “high” church ones.

And I do not mean “become.”

I wonder what the evangelical ones would do?
 
I talked to an episcopal priest who said he has valid orders no matter what the catholic church says. At his ordaination in 1974 bishops of the PNCC were there and they have valid orders in catholic eyes. would this priest and others like him have valid orders?
 
markbar said:
I talked to an episcopal priest who said he has valid orders no matter what the catholic church says. At his ordaination in 1974 bishops of the PNCC were there and they have valid orders in catholic eyes. would this priest and others like him have valid orders?
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A question that has often been discussed here. The short answer is that, if you mean in Rome’s eyes, Rome has made no comments, on the PNCC joint consecrations with Anglicans or on the Old Catholics, ditto.

GKC
 
GKC said:
A question that has often been discussed here. The short answer is that, if you mean in Rome’s eyes, Rome has made no comments, on the PNCC joint consecrations with Anglicans or on the Old Catholics, ditto.

GKC
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Could it be that Rome has no comments because they don’t want to admit that Episcopal priest do have valid orders.
 
markbar said:
Could it be that Rome has no comments because they don’t want to admit that Episcopal priest do have valid orders.
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I couldn’t say. But Rome is under no obligation to say one way or the other. The question has been an active one, since 1932, when the Old Catholics of Utrecht and the Anglican communion began joint consecrations of bishops. This would, logically, infuse valid episcopal orders into Anglicanism, and the priesthood would be valid, as valid bishops ordained them.

But, AFAIK, there is no comment on this concept, from Rome, for whatever reason.

GKC
 
GKC said:
I couldn’t say. But Rome is under no obligation to say one way or the other. The question has been an active one, since 1932, when the Old Catholics of Utrecht and the Anglican communion began joint consecrations of bishops. This would, logically, infuse valid episcopal orders into Anglicanism, and the priesthood would be valid, as valid bishops ordained them.

But, AFAIK, there is no comment on this concept, from Rome, for whatever reason.

GKC
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Valid but illicit Rome would say…
 
GKC said:
Logically, yes. But not even that comment.

GKC
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I’m just speculating of course, but I would venture to say that Benedict would probably acknowledge the validity of the ordinations from Dutch Touch lines, but from a Catholic point of view, without the papacy and a proper understanding of what constitutes a Church, without a proper understanding of the sacrificial sacerdotal nature of that said priesthood, and without a full penitential system, those orders are extremely illicit and, as my dad would say, “what’s the point!?” Benedict pointed out that he views the Orthodox as being “defective” because they lack the union of the papacy and at least the Orthodox have all seven sacraments and a penitential system as well as a theology deeply-rooted in the Early Church and the deposit of faith. Anglicans have departed so far from that, that the pope would probably consider them defective 2.0 reloaded yet valid.

And from a Catholic standpoint, the ability to consecrate Hosts is not the be-all and end-all of what makes a church a Church…Theology, understanding, polity, sacraments, form and intention, and catechism are all components that must be there. While the priests from the Dutch Touch have the ability to confect, they are far out of alignment from proper theology, praxis, and apostolic teaching, from Rome’s point of view.
 
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