Episcopal Bishops in Rome - meeting the Pope

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The Episcopal Church’s Bishops are in various parts of the planet. After meeting in South Korea to celebrate that country’s 150th anniversary of Anglicanism, a smaller group went to Rome to share a retreat. Wednesday the 7th, they were invited to the Pope’s audience, and given front row seats before being introduced individually. Great pics are going around.

And it was noticed that as the Synod was peripherally discussing women deacons, the Pope got to meet a wonderful group of TEC’s women Bishops. As Bishop Diane Jardine Bruce (Los Angeles) wrote: ‘we were treated with great dignity and respect. We were greeted warmly by the Pope – and he knew we were coming. Change happens via the building of relationships, and this is a Pope who believes in relationships and cares for the poor.’

Very proud of our Bishops. And the graciousness of the Pope.
 
The Episcopal Church’s Bishops are in various parts of the planet. After meeting in South Korea to celebrate that country’s 150th anniversary of Anglicanism, a smaller group went to Rome to share a retreat. Wednesday the 7th, they were invited to the Pope’s audience, and given front row seats before being introduced individually. Great pics are going around.

And it was noticed that as the Synod was peripherally discussing women deacons, the Pope got to meet a wonderful group of TEC’s women Bishops. As Bishop Diane Jardine Bruce (Los Angeles) wrote: ‘we were treated with great dignity and respect. We were greeted warmly by the Pope – and he knew we were coming. Change happens via the building of relationships, and this is a Pope who believes in relationships and cares for the poor.’

Very proud of our Bishops. And the graciousness of the Pope.
Interesting that the Pope greets Anglican women bishops so warmly?
 
I fail to understand the point. The Pope wants everyone to get along. He wants to give Christian Charity.

But he has already stated that female ordination is not a possibility, because it is Dogma.

I don’t understand why people think a Pope can change that… He can’t.

Changing one dogma would destroy the Church, because if one Dogma changes, why not all of them? How about deny the Dogma of the Holy Trinity next?
 
and why wouldn’t he?
Because the Roman Catholic Church is opposed to women bishops. It is a mortal sin for a woman to pretend to be a bishop, is it not? The Anglicans claim apostolic succession and a valid priesthood.
 
^^^^

None of which negates the need for charity and kindness and dialogue.
 
I congratulate ComplineSanFran on his/her informative post and I am very glad to know of this visit as I was not aware of it. I am delighted to read about it and to see the photos. I’ve had long standing close relations with the Centro Anglicano in Rome.

I’m afraid I also do not understand the expectation of certain posters that these people would not be graciously received at the Vatican. They are, after all, not Catholic women claiming to be Catholic bishops but women of the Anglican communion who are considered, if not by everyone, at least by a significant part of the communities that compose their communion, to be bishops. And it is as officials from the Anglican communion that they are received.

In Rome, we have the Anglican Centre, of which I wrote above, and among other functions it serves as the office of the personal representative of the Archbishop of Canterbury to the Holy See. For many years, it has been an important and fruitful presence in the eternal city and representatives from throughout the Anglican communion pass through Rome regularly.

These visiting officials are graciously received by the Holy Father and the heads of the dicasteries because of the cordial relations between Rome and Canterbury. Rome also has a vibrant presence of members of the Anglican communion abiding in it…at Saint Paul Within Walls (the American Episcopal parish) and All Saints (the Church of England parish) as well as the Anglicans from Africa who live in Rome. There are great interactions which regularly occur, also on matters of practical cooperation, that are very important for all the communities that participate.

That said, whether it is a priest or a bishop of the Anglican communion who asks to be received into full communion with Rome, either through the older pastoral provision or through the provisions of Anglicanorum coetibus, these ministers have to be absolutely ordained, first as deacons and then as priests, by a Catholic bishop because their ordinations within the Anglican communion are not recognized by Rome. The bishops who come over from the Anglican communion are afforded privileges and prerogatives greater than the priests who come over but they must be ordained as Catholic priests and, if married, are not eligible for advancement to the episcopate.

Yes, the women are not seen by Catholics as bishops. But when one remembers the declaration of Leo XIII and Apostolicae curae, the male bishops are also not deemed validly ordained bishops either. This is the case also with the Swedish Lutheran Bishops – neither male nor female.

Fundamental disagreements over the validity of Order, and indeed the very nature of the sacrament of Order and of ministry, is one of the many reasons, beyond governance and the Petrine ministry, why we are and remain separated from joint exercise of ministerial acts.

And yet, simple etiquette expresses itself in receiving these officials with a decorum and cordiality that warmly expresses the ecumenical relations that exist whether between Rome and Sweden or between Rome and Canterbury. Thus, recently when Pope Francis met with Archbishop Antje Jackelén, the female head of the (Lutheran) Church of Sweden, she was welcomed warmly to the Vatican as an honored visitor.

What else would one expect? The theological mind of the Church is quite fully expressed in her documents about the validity or invalidity of the sacrament of Order in Churches and ecclesial communities outside of the Churches that are Roman or in communion with Rome – they are assuredly very well known to the clerics, both Roman and non-Roman, and the obstacles to full communion are quite well comprehended by clergy on both sides of the Tiber and the Thames.

Surely one would not expect the Pope to verbally reiterate the theological obstacles in every encounter? That would only compound the pain of the division we confront. We can assuredly pray together. We can acknowledge the many things in the patrimony of the faith upon which we do agree. We can work together in all the areas that do not directly touch upon matters for which accord is not possible.

Roman officials too, including the sovereign pontiff, regularly receive, with respect and a gracious deference, ministers and officials of the various Christian communities that lay no claim at all to apostolic succession or even to a form of ministry that is conformed to Catholic theology. No less true, high officials of various non-Christian religions also are graciously received by the Pope and other curial officials – but such an action is expressive neither of any sort of theological endorsement of them and the offices they hold nor of the theologies they represent. De facto, these men and women are religious leaders of their various congregants and are received as such and, at all the various levels, the Church seeks to cooperate with men and women of good will in the advancement of what is right, good, and true to the fullest extent opportunities permit.
 
I’m sorry, but this is almost too pastoral. Does His Holiness not realize that these photo ops speak to intention and complicity? Historians 500 years from now will be looking back on these photos arguing whether they serve as evidence that Pope Francis supported “Women Priests”.

The Orthodox are looking better and better each day…
 
I’m sorry, but this is almost too pastoral. Does His Holiness not realize that these photo ops speak to intention and complicity? Historians 500 years from now will be looking back on these photos arguing whether they serve as evidence that Pope Francis supported “Women Priests”.

The Orthodox are looking better and better each day…
I think you make too much of this. It is commonplace good manners. Here is Pope Benedict shaking hands with a woman canon of Westminster Abbey, for instance:

duckduckgo.com/?q=pope+benedict+at+westminster+abbey&t=osx&ia=videos&iai=GAiXY5kNfZ8
 
Because the Roman Catholic Church is opposed to women bishops. It is a mortal sin for a woman to pretend to be a bishop, is it not? The Anglicans claim apostolic succession and a valid priesthood.
Well… People are claiming all sort of things lately. Ever more outlandish! That does not make them true. :rolleyes:

It would be a mortal sin for a Catholic man or woman who is NOT ordained to claim to be a Bishop OR a priest for that matter.
These are Anglicans, they have neither priests nor Bishops since they do not have valid orders, never mind the female issue, that is beside the point.
Even a rogue Catholic Bishop cannot give Holy Orders to a woman. The reason is that, he simply does not have the authority to do so.

We do have to show charity, by loving them and praying for them. That they may come to see the truth. After all, the judging will be carried out by someone with the authority to do so. 😉

We are asked to love the sinner and hate the sin. That is all. 👍

 
There’s no reason he shouldn’t be kind to them. We’re all Christian at least, and he knows as well as anyone that they aren’t bishops of a valid line and unfortunately for their outlook, share no part in the ordained life. The Pope knows this. You can’t just go and be rude because “we know better.”
 
I congratulate ComplineSanFran on his/her informative post and I am very glad to know of this visit as I was not aware of it. I am delighted to read about it and to see the photos. I’ve had long standing close relations with the Centro Anglicano in Rome.

I’m afraid I also do not understand the expectation of certain posters that these people would not be graciously received at the Vatican. They are, after all, not Catholic women claiming to be Catholic bishops but women of the Anglican communion who are considered, if not by everyone, at least by a significant part of the communities that compose their communion, to be bishops. And it is as officials from the Anglican communion that they are received.

In Rome, we have the Anglican Centre, of which I wrote above, and among other functions it serves as the office of the personal representative of the Archbishop of Canterbury to the Holy See. For many years, it has been an important and fruitful presence in the eternal city and representatives from throughout the Anglican communion pass through Rome regularly.

These visiting officials are graciously received by the Holy Father and the heads of the dicasteries because of the cordial relations between Rome and Canterbury. Rome also has a vibrant presence of members of the Anglican communion abiding in it…at Saint Paul Within Walls (the American Episcopal parish) and All Saints (the Church of England parish) as well as the Anglicans from Africa who live in Rome. There are great interactions which regularly occur, also on matters of practical cooperation, that are very important for all the communities that participate.

That said, whether it is a priest or a bishop of the Anglican communion who asks to be received into full communion with Rome, either through the older pastoral provision or through the provisions of Anglicanorum coetibus, these ministers have to be absolutely ordained, first as deacons and then as priests, by a Catholic bishop because their ordinations within the Anglican communion are not recognized by Rome. The bishops who come over from the Anglican communion are afforded privileges and prerogatives greater than the priests who come over but they must be ordained as Catholic priests and, if married, are not eligible for advancement to the episcopate.

Yes, the women are not seen by Catholics as bishops. But when one remembers the declaration of Leo XIII and Apostolicae curae, the male bishops are also not deemed validly ordained bishops either. This is the case also with the Swedish Lutheran Bishops – neither male nor female.

Fundamental disagreements over the validity of Order, and indeed the very nature of the sacrament of Order and of ministry, is one of the many reasons, beyond governance and the Petrine ministry, why we are and remain separated from joint exercise of ministerial acts.

And yet, simple etiquette expresses itself in receiving these officials with a decorum and cordiality that warmly expresses the ecumenical relations that exist whether between Rome and Sweden or between Rome and Canterbury. Thus, recently when Pope Francis met with Archbishop Antje Jackelén, the female head of the (Lutheran) Church of Sweden, she was welcomed warmly to the Vatican as an honored visitor.

What else would one expect? The theological mind of the Church is quite fully expressed in her documents about the validity or invalidity of the sacrament of Order in Churches and ecclesial communities outside of the Churches that are Roman or in communion with Rome – they are assuredly very well known to the clerics, both Roman and non-Roman, and the obstacles to full communion are quite well comprehended by clergy on both sides of the Tiber and the Thames.

Surely one would not expect the Pope to verbally reiterate the theological obstacles in every encounter? That would only compound the pain of the division we confront. We can assuredly pray together. We can acknowledge the many things in the patrimony of the faith upon which we do agree. We can work together in all the areas that do not directly touch upon matters for which accord is not possible.

Roman officials too, including the sovereign pontiff, regularly receive, with respect and a gracious deference, ministers and officials of the various Christian communities that lay no claim at all to apostolic succession or even to a form of ministry that is conformed to Catholic theology. No less true, high officials of various non-Christian religions also are graciously received by the Pope and other curial officials – but such an action is expressive neither of any sort of theological endorsement of them and the offices they hold nor of the theologies they represent. De facto, these men and women are religious leaders of their various congregants and are received as such and, at all the various levels, the Church seeks to cooperate with men and women of good will in the advancement of what is right, good, and true to the fullest extent opportunities permit.
Well said, and comprehensive. Purely for the historical interest, it will be recalled that at least 2 instances of an Anglican priest/bishop who converted to the RCC and received ordination sub conditione, are known, post Apostolicae Curae. And Paul VI had a rather close relationship with ++Ramsey, when he was Archbishop of Canterbury
 
And it was noticed that as the Synod was peripherally discussing women deacons, the Pope got to meet a wonderful group of TEC’s women Bishops. As Bishop Diane Jardine Bruce (Los Angeles) wrote: ‘we were treated with great dignity and respect. We were greeted warmly by the Pope – and he knew we were coming. Change happens via the building of relationships, and this is a Pope who believes in relationships and cares for the poor.’

Very proud of our Bishops. And the graciousness of the Pope.
That seems a bit of a miss-characterization since the only reference I’ve seen regarding the discussion of women deacons was by one Canadian Archbishop—hardly the Synod and certainly not an agenda item. And who was doing the noticing? Are you quoting a news report?
 
The Pope being down-to-earth accepts the reality of many ecclesial communities existing since 1521. He even sent a message greeting the Copelandists.

There existed at one time a school of thought within both the RC and the Anglicans that if women clergy weren’t adopted among the latter, there would be scope for organisational union.

God lands us in uncomfortable challenges, how to live and work (when appropriate) with people of goodwill, people with whom we share much of the Gospel, etc.
 
That seems a bit of a miss-characterization since the only reference I’ve seen regarding the discussion of women deacons was by one Canadian Archbishop—hardly the Synod and certainly not an agenda item. And who was doing the noticing? Are you quoting a news report?
Thank you for bringing this up. Yes, it was just one Archbishop, Canadian Paul-Andre Durocher of Gatineau, Quebec, who used his time before the Synod to suggest this. As far as the agenda is concerned, is it public? I haven’t seen where it is.

Here is one of the sources I used.

christiantoday.com/article/possibility.of.catholic.women.deacons.raised.at.synod.on.family/66892.htm
 
Interesting that the Pope greets Anglican women bishops so warmly?
I would suggest that you not click on any links about Pope John Paul II’s meetings with non-Christian leaders. (Or at least make sure you’re sitting down first, but even then I don’t think it would be a good idea.)
 
Because the Roman Catholic Church is opposed to women bishops. It is a mortal sin for a woman to pretend to be a bishop, is it not? The Anglicans claim apostolic succession and a valid priesthood.
^^^^

None of which negates the need for charity and kindness and dialogue.
Exactly my point.

EWTN aired the installation of The Archbishop of New York, what I found to be one of the highlights was when the representatives of the other Faiths in New York greeted the Archbishop… something I wouldn’t have thought possible (… sorry, convert, it was the first Installation I’ve ever seen 🤷) these people don’t see “eye-to-eye” with the Roman Catholic Church and yet, they showed respect to our Archbishop!

I saw this same thing with the installation of the Archbishop of Chicago (if you didn’t get to watch it then click here).

You see this same sort of Respect between high ranking military officials and Heads of State, doesn’t mean they like nor agree with each other; however, there is a dignity and respect for the positions that should be acknowledged.
 
The Orthodox are looking better and better each day…
Well, the Orthodox that I have worked with are no less gracious and hospitable to non-Orthodox clergy than how we see the Holy Father and the Holy See treating non-Roman clergy.

Here is a photo involving the Anglican Bishop in Jerusalem, Suheil Dawani, the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church in the United States, Katharine Jefferts Schori, and Theophilos III, Patriarch of the Orthodox Church of Jerusalem.

For me, it is a great positive for us, as clergy, to have good relations with each other. It makes ecumenism much more pleasant…as well as much more possible.

episcopaldigitalnetwork.com/ens/files/2013/02/ens_020613_greekpatriarch.jpg
 
Well, the Orthodox that I have worked with are no less gracious and hospitable to non-Orthodox clergy than how we see the Holy Father and the Holy See treating non-Roman clergy.

Here is a photo involving the Anglican Bishop in Jerusalem, Suheil Dawani, the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church in the United States, Katharine Jefferts Schori, and Theophilos III, Patriarch of the Orthodox Church of Jerusalem.

For me, it is a great positive for us, as clergy, to have good relations with each other. It makes ecumenism much more pleasant…as well as much more possible.

episcopaldigitalnetwork.com/ens/files/2013/02/ens_020613_greekpatriarch.jpg
I agree. Thank you for your words. I know I have shown this picture before, but perhaps it’s worth showing again. The Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury was asked by the Pope to bless him. To me, it implies humility and great respect on the part of Pope Francis. And an honor bestowed upon Canterbury.
 
Pope Francis has a splendid sense of fraternitas and a sense of historic drama. His visit to the Patriarch of Constantinople, using the image of Peter visiting his brother Andrew, was very touching and endearing…and remarkably personal.

The ties of Rome and Canterbury though are also quite profound. One of my favorite places in the eternal city is San Gregorio al Celio…the site of the home of Pope Saint Gregory, which he turned into the monastery of Saint Andrew. It is from there that he sent Saint Augustine of Canterbury and his companion monks to southeast England.

I so vividly remember the day in 1989 when Lord Runcie came to Rome and he and Pope John Paul II met precisely at that spot on the Caelian Hill. I also remember almost a decade later the 1400th anniversary celebration in England of Saint Augustine’s arrival in Canterbury in 597. Another poster remarked the friendship between Pope Paul VI and Lord Ramsay.

There are so many bonds to be celebrated and to be grateful for between the Holy See and Britain. The present atmosphere of cordiality and cooperation is so much better than the animus and mutual suspicion and disdain of a previous era…thankfully.
 
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