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TarkanAttila
Guest
Ho boy.
I hope this is good news for the Anglican Ordinariate.
I hope this is good news for the Anglican Ordinariate.
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chimo
Guest
This is no surprise as the Episcopal Church has been falling away from the faith for decades. It can be considered even now to be a heretical Church as the Orthodox Church no longer finds this Church to be part of what it use to be. One of the finest Bishops from the Russian Orthodox Church who will probably ascend to be Patriarch seat someday when he was invited to come to an Anglican conference decided to use that time to tell the Anglicans that their course of action in establishing women priests and changing the course of marriage signifies a closure between any establishment of unity between the two Churches. It seems to me that God is pushing the two great Faiths, Catholicism and the Eastern Churches to come together from all what is happening. If there be any Church that will not subscribe to the secular world it is the Catholic Church and the Eastern Churches. Perhaps what we are witnessing from all of this is the way for the Catholic and Eastern Churches to come together to fight this terrible resurgence of secularism that is sweeping the West.
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esieffe
Guest
When my father was active in the EC clergy, one had to get special permission from the Bishop if he wanted to marry after a divorce. I suppose that would be a laughable restriction now.
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GratefulFred
Guest
The AP news report gave the voting (80% of the House of Bishops) but not the biblical basis.
There is much in the Bible supporting traditional marriage and nothing I see that supports SSM. And certainly not to the point of asserting the SSM is equal to traditional marriage by the teaching of Jesus Christ.
There is much in the Bible supporting “Love one another as I have loved you.” But I see nothing that commands us to love gays unconditionally - that God expects us to love them to the point of giving their unions God’s Blessing.
A Christian religion is all about following Christ’s teaching. It is not about changing to satisfy popular demands.
Romans 1: 18-32. 2 Timothy 4: 1-5.
There is much in the Bible supporting traditional marriage and nothing I see that supports SSM. And certainly not to the point of asserting the SSM is equal to traditional marriage by the teaching of Jesus Christ.
There is much in the Bible supporting “Love one another as I have loved you.” But I see nothing that commands us to love gays unconditionally - that God expects us to love them to the point of giving their unions God’s Blessing.
A Christian religion is all about following Christ’s teaching. It is not about changing to satisfy popular demands.
Romans 1: 18-32. 2 Timothy 4: 1-5.
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Catholic1954
Guest
The Episcopal Church has been imploding for a long time. When they approved women and gays for clergy there was a big defection to the Catholic Church, let’s see if they keep coming in.
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powerofk
Guest
The apostolic Churches may have separated long before the Protestants broke off, but they remain closest to each other in terms of doctrine. And though some of the Orthodox Churches resubmitted themselves to Rome (hence the plethora of Eastern Catholic Churches), there has been a long history of hurt and distrust over the centuries. Reunification may happen one day, but it’ll be slow. Thankfully, though, the Catholic Church considers the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox to be “sister churches”, and, though we wish to be reunified one day, instead of trying to force reunification on our terms (as the policy used to be), we’ve decided to just keep the communication lines open and let the Holy Spirit work.
Unlike the Protestant Reformation, which was like rebellious children refusing to listen to their parents, the Great Schism was more like an ugly divorce in which the parents - even though they agreed on just about everything - got proud and refused to listen to the concerns of the other parent. Today, they’re working on a long and arduous reconciliation, but it will remain long and arduous. On the other hand, as I said a few sentences ago, the Protestant Reformation was more like rebellious children refusing to listen to their parents, in essence saying, “We’ll do it our own way! We don’t care what you have to say, we know what we’re doing!” And, as such, they ran away from home. But like the Prodigal Children that they are, the hope is that one day they will come back home, asking for forgiveness from their forgiving father, who is all too willing to let them come back.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
When won’t the episcopal church capitulate to modernity?
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Sy_Noe
Guest
I’ve worked overtime in defense of TEC on this topic of their approval of SSM on other threads on another subforum and as much as I wish I could, I can’t be everywhere at once on the exact same topic.
So here I’ll just say for now that it’s a 2 way street actually. I personally know of 3 Episcopal priests just in my area alone and these are only the ones that I know of, there well could be more, that either were Latin rite priests and are now Episcopal priests or in the case of the 3rd one, was a Baptized Catholic before joining TEC and going on to the priesthood. It’s my understanding as well that there are numerous laypersons among TEC faithful who were also baptized in the CC. There’s an old saying that TEC is “Catholc Lite”. Which has attracted some Catholics to TEC.
In regard to newer understandings of faith and homosexuality, there is a wealth of information out there on the internet that can aid a person in understanding different perspectives and interpretations if one is truly interested and open to learning about it.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
I don’t know anyone who has numbers on people who have left the Episcopal Church for either the Roman Catholic Church or Eastern Orthodoxy, especially after key decisions were made on liturgy and on women. Neither do I have numbers of people who left the RCC for Anglicanism. Personally, in my Episcopal parish, we have three former Jesuit priests and I cannot even count the number of former lay Catholics. Nationally (US), my guess is that we are pretty even, and that is being generous to the Catholics.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
Well said.
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Potter
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Being a member of an Episcopal parish this news has been a source of concern to me since it first started filtering through. My hope is that it will make a few minor headlines, people will pat themselves on the back for being so progressive, and then we can ignore it again. I’m so attached to my parish church that the specter of having to distance myself from it is…most, most unwelcome.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
Potter, I wouldn’t worry too much. Things will die down after a bit and church will go on as usual. The rather remarkable thing for those of us in the Episcopal Church is that the General Convention’s decisions came right in the midst of the Supreme Court’s decision. Who could have foretold the timing of it all?
If you are in a parish that is high church, you undoubtedly have quite a few members who are gay. There may be some weddings in store, but your priest will set the tone for that.
In the meantime, the most important thing is we are all Christ’s Body, and what a joy that is.
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ericc
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What newer understandings of faith and homosexuality? By who and authorized by who? Was there a new revelation by which new age prophet?
It is cast in Biblical stone that homosexuality is a sin against God. Period. From Leviticus to the Epistles of Paul.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
No, that canon law is pretty much is still in place.
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Yeoman
Guest
What would that be? I.e., how were the Orthodox regarding the Anglican Communion in general, or the Episcopal Church in particular (if answered below, my apologies, I haven’t read all of this thread yet).
Interesting that you stated this, as I said something similar in another thread, and I fully agree with you.
We are seeing the seeds of individualism that were planted in the reformation now fully in bloom as weeds. At the same time, the “main line” Protestant Churches are dieing off. The more they seek to accommodate the world, the more critical the patient becomes. Only in those instances where Protestant Churches have taken the hard position of not accommodating their message are they remaining message are they remaining strong, and in this particular area that’s the Anglican or “Anglican Catholic” branches of the Anglican Communion. The interesting thing we’re now seeing is that many of these churches, in order to define themselves, do so by reference to the Catholic Church, either expressly or implicitly. And we’re also seeing that more and more Protestants of all types are going back deep into the history of the Church, where the current social debates tend to take you, only to find the Fathers and then emerge back out the other side as Catholics or Orthodox.
We always wonder why God allows these travails, and I sometimes think we think of that incorrectly in that we withdraw from God and thereby cause them, while he uses the disaster to fix something. I think that’s what’s going on now. It’s often noted that the Churches are in trouble all over the world, but that isn’t so. In much of the world the Catholic Church (and the Catholic tending Anglican’s outside of this hemisphere) and the Orthodox are doing fine. The Protestant faiths are dieing in Europe and are very ill here. At the end of the day, I suspect that the Faithful branches of the Anglican Communion and the Lutheran churches will gravitate back towards the Catholic Church and then incorporate within it, both here and in Europe. At the same time, individual Protestants of all types will find their way into the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches. As this occurs, Orthodoxy and Catholicism, which already know where the other is, will continue to move towards reconciliation and eventually do so.
If that sounds too rosy, I’ll also note, however, as the churchless in Europe struggle to find meaning in their lives, quite a few will find that meaning in Islam, until we get our act together.
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Yeoman
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I’ve often wondered about that evolution. I think you are correct, but I don’t know how they’ve explained it. It’s worth noting that Edward VIII had a difficult time finding a priest of the Church of England who would perform the wedding to Wallis Simpson for that reason. If I recall correctly, they had to find one that was located in France. The often simplified concept that the Church of England sanctioned divorce due to Henry VIII is completely wrong.
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Yeoman
Guest
I doubt that.
While figures are hard to come by, I’m pretty certain that more enter the Catholic church than the other way around. If we add those who enter Anglican Churches that look to Rome in some fashion, the number is increased.
One thing to keep in mind is that Catholics who enter the Episcopal church in this ear fit into one of two categories, those being: 1) not very serious Catholics; and 2) serious liberal dissidents.
In the first category, there’s always been some of that, but generally there are the poorly Catechized who figure one church is as good as another. So the church is closer, or the service times more to their liking, etc. Part of this includes men (usually) who marry Protestant women and follow them into their church, as they were never all that serious about their church (usually) in the first place. And then there are those who are divorced and getting remarried, and the Episcopal Church seems sort of Catholic-like to them.
In the second group are actual Catholics of a distinctly liberal bent who know that their views are never going to find a home in the Catholic Church, so they convince themselves that the Episcopal Church is a type of Catholic Church and go there.
I’d note in former days, but no longer, another type of the No. 1 category were Catholics and other Protestants who were economically motivated, as in many communities the Episcopal Church was where the well connected went for historical reasons. So, businessmen who didn’t want the hindrance of being Catholic (once a very real hindrance) would become Episcopalians. That is no longer a factor.
In contrast, generally Episcopalians who become Catholics, Orthodox, or “Anglican Catholics” are really dedicated and know exactly what they believe. Indeed, here locally, and we’re not that big of city, we’ve had two Anglican churches spring up with one being made up of part of the parish of the big downtown Episcopal Church when their Priest departed with them.
If all that sounds hostile, it isn’t meant to be. We’re seeing a rapid evolution and frankly death of the mainline Episcopal Church as it seeks to accommodate modernity. As that happens, some individual Catholics will come on board, as there always have been Catholics who would do that. Indeed, the entire original Anglican Church was made up of Catholics, after all. But the long term trend line is pretty clear. Even other Protestant groups see that. Last year the big downtown Presbyterian Church here put up a huge banner facing the Episcopal Church with the worlds “Join An Authentic Church” on it. It’s pretty clear whom they were seeking to recruit.
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Yeoman
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Pronouncements made in a civil context by the world cannot be ignored, but can be resisted.
Pronouncements made inside of your own church by church authorities cannot really be ignored, can they? It seems there would be a true head in the sand aspect to that.
If this makes you uncomfortable, allow me to suggest it should make you uncomfortable. Discomfort should bring reflection, and here, I guess, in terms of attachment, recall Christ’s discussion of father against mother, etc.
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TarkanAttila
Guest
I don’t honestly know much about how Episcopalians deal with their church politics. The whole latitudinarian schema of your church puzzles me in the first place.
(How do you guys recognise the episcopacy of Bishop John Shelby Spong, BTW?
)But somehow, given the “in your face” attitude that’s been taken by gay lobbyists on this issue, including our beloved emp- president, my guess would be:
On the other hand, I sympathise with you. And I hope your pastor sticks close to moral truth and goodness.
It is, indeed, a joy.
What a joy it is, or ought to be, to instruct the ignorant, admonish sinners, comfort the sorrowful, forgive injuries, and bear wrongs patiently. And, of course, to pray for the living and the dead.- Status