Episcopal Church in US approves same-sex weddings [CWN]

[Duane1966]

With all the talk about siblings wanting to marry or a person wanting to marry an animal or an inanimate object (which is head-bangingly ridiculous), none of that is legal, nor will it be legal

You say ridiculous. I can get that same answer from anyone on the street, but why is it ridiculous?

No union is more profound than marriage, for it embodies the highest ideals of love, fidelity, devotion, sacrifice and family. In forming a marital union, two people become something greater than once they were.

The above is a quote from justice Kennedy.

If two siblings want to show the highest ideal of love, fidelity, and devotion, to each other, on what grounds would the state deny them?

 

[GKC]

ericc;13106467:

EricC, I haven’t seen the wording yet from General Convention - it was only approved last week. But once we get the wording of both Canon Law and the Liturgical changes to the texts of the Marriage Office, I can certainly post them here.

The Marriage Office IS sacramental. And the changes to include same gender is what our own ‘Magesterium’ - our Bishops and governing body - has decided. Just as they decided that Ordination as a sacrament was opened to include women. Just as they decided to do many things as part of the Tradition and Reason of the Faith. It is where our two branches of the Church differ, but nonetheless, it is now real and a part of the Church. Lutherans will follow, since we now have a alliance with them sacramentally. And Protestant denominations will begin to made decisions about it too.

I do understand that the Roman Catholic teaching about marriage is different. It involves very specific dictates. But that is no longer the case for other branches of the Church.

It will take some time for both the legal and the religious elements of same gender marriage to settle in, but I believe it will. Families are different now (and have been for some time) and this will be normalized in time. I don’t know what the RCC will do. It will be interesting to see how parishes incorporate gay families. I see some of that here in San Francisco, where of course the LGBT population is much larger. Our parishes are quite diverse.

I tell you, Chauncey…

 

[commenter]

ericc;13106467:

EricC, I haven’t seen the wording yet from General Convention - it was only approved last week. But once we get the wording of both Canon Law and the Liturgical changes to the texts of the Marriage Office, I can certainly post them here.

Or spare us.

The Marriage Office IS sacramental. And the changes to include same gender is what our own ‘Magesterium’ - our Bishops and governing body - has decided.

The TEC does not have a Magisterium; or anything equivalent. Their actions in recent years will demonstrate to some why a Magisterium is needed.

Just as they decided that Ordination as a sacrament was opened to include women. Just as they decided to do many things as part of the Tradition and Reason of the Faith.

It is also possible they simply adopt changes to follow the secular society, and then justify all their decisions after the fact as emerging from prayer, Tradition, and Reason.
That sounds better.

I do understand that the Roman Catholic teaching about marriage is different.
It involves very specific dictates. But that is no longer the case for other branches of the Church.

The RCC never created the teaching about marriage being only between a man and a woman. The Natural Law was already there, before us. It applies to all individuals and couples, Christian or not. It’s not a “Catholic” thing, it’s a human thing, like sacredness of unborn life.

It will take some time for both the legal and the religious elements of same gender marriage to settle in, but I believe it will. Families are different now (and have been for some time) and this will be normalized in time.

The gospel is never normalized. It calls us to conversion. Acceptance of sin is the typical response, by individuals and institutions. Any dead thing can float downstream; only a living one can swim against the current. Persons with homosexual tendencies have lost an ally - the TEC - in their own struggle towards conversion and sainthood.

 

[ericc]

With all the talk about siblings wanting to marry or a person wanting to marry an animal or an inanimate object (which is head-bangingly ridiculous), none of that is legal, nor will it be legal, nor will the Episcopal Church even begin to take it seriously.

That’s scary. If secular authorities makes it legal, this church going to consider it seriously? Same sex is already legal. Previously it wasn’t. Why should any of these stop “progressing”? All you need is an “enlightened” mind.

 

[Faithdancer]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I would guess that ACNA and Continuing Anglican bishops are just trying to do what Anglican bishops won’t: step out and define your faith so it actually has some meaning!

I don’t believe you’re wrong at all, Tarkan- that is exactly what they are doing.

 

[Faithdancer]

The Episcopal Church has been imploding for a long time. When they approved women and gays for clergy there was a big defection to the Catholic Church, let’s see if they keep coming in.

Actually there is a
thriving Anglican movement that is part of neither TEC nor the Church of England. Few Anglicans can accept papal infallibility, among other issues.

 

[outremer]

I noticed that the U.S. Ordinariate has specifically not officially addressed the Episcopal Church’s radical transformation on this matter. I wonder if they will actively seek to Evangelize Episcopalians now that this theological madness has been approved, or if it will go unanswered by the Anglican Use parishes?

 

[Faithdancer]

I noticed that the U.S. Ordinariate has specifically not officially addressed the Episcopal Church’s radical transformation on this matter. I wonder if they will actively seek to Evangelize Episcopalians now that this theological madness has been approved, or if it will go unanswered by the Anglican Use parishes?

They are welcome in the ACNA and the other non-Episcopalian, non-Church of England Anglican bodies. And I would welcome closer ties with Rome, even as I discern Anglican Holy Orders.

 

[hwriggles4]

Faithdancer:

I am thinking that more Episcopalians will be crossing the Tiber. One place this is really being noticed is Texas. A large reason for Texas to have many Catholic converts from Episcopalian has to do with the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth being more “traditional” than many others. As the Episcopal church has strayed from it’s roots, several Episcopalians have made the decision to cross the Tiber, with many in Texas. Several former Episcopal priests from the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth (I can count at least eight since 1996) have entered the Catholic priesthood under the Pastoral Provision. Others have not entered on the Pastoral Provision, and are working secular jobs.

I hope the country is able to support Religious Freedom, and I pray that Catholic bishops and priests will stand their ground and not permit “same-sex” weddings. My Baptist friends in Texas also agree that “sodomite marriage” is not marriage as defined by God. I also thanked the pastor and the priests, as well as the transitional deacon this summer at my parish, who preached from the pulpit that marriage is defined by God as “one man and one woman.” If your priest did the same, please thank him.

 

[Faithdancer]

I’m so attached to my parish church that the specter of having to distance myself from it is…most, most unwelcome.

I feel your pain, Potter, just as I feel for all those folks in the Diocese of San Joaquin who were uprooted from churches they had attended for generations. They did it, though, and now there is a an Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin (ACNA) that is planning boldly, and thriving.

 

[Faithdancer]

Faithdancer:

I hope the country is able to support Religious Freedom, and I pray that Catholic bishops and priests will stand their ground and not permit “same-sex” weddings. My Baptist friends in Texas also agree that “sodomite marriage” is not marriage as defined by God. I also thanked the pastor and the priests, as well as the transitional deacon this summer at my parish, who preached from the pulpit that marriage is defined by God as “one man and one woman.” If your priest did the same, please thank him.

My priest was asked point blank in a recent service if he would perform same sex “marriages” and he responded that the ACNA forbids it and as an individual minister, he wouldn’t do it either. He feels it is unbiblical, as do I. I can’t imagine anyone staying in ACNA if they believe otherwise since opposition to same sex “marriage” has been a key factor in ACNA’s formation.

As far as disaffected Episcopalians returning to the Roman Catholic church-- Deo gratias! Would love to have them in the ACNA but hey, at least they’re not joining the UMC or the UCC!

 

[hwriggles4]

Faithdancer:

Thanks for the information on the Anglican Church of North America (ACNA). I didn’t know anything about it. Have you heard of the Anglican Province of America? I knew someone who visited one of their parishes in Florida years ago (I think they have about 15-20 parishes in the United States).

I’ve heard some Presbyterians are OK with “same-sex weddings”, but I also know that the Presbyterians are known as the “split p’s”. Presbyterians I have met (and knew growing up) often reminded me that the Presbyterian church five miles away from another was oftentimes a different mindset.

Faithdancer, if a Catholic priest ever mentioned that he was OK with same-sex weddings, I would make a note of that and find another parish to attend Mass. To those Catholic priests and deacons (and pastors, ministers, preachers, Anglican priests, and deacons of other faiths) who stood up from the pulpit that marriage is defined as “one man and one woman” - thank you.

 

[Contarini]

My priest was asked point blank in a recent service if he would perform same sex “marriages” and he responded that the ACNA forbids it and as an individual minister, he wouldn’t do it either. He feels it is unbiblical, as do I. I can’t imagine anyone staying in ACNA if they believe otherwise since opposition to same sex “marriage” has been a key factor in ACNA’s formation.

As far as disaffected Episcopalians returning to the Roman Catholic church-- Deo gratias! Would love to have them in the ACNA but hey, at least they’re not joining the UMC or the UCC!

The UMC is, for me, a much more “live” option than the ACNA.

The absolute last thing the Body of Christ needs at this point in human history is more division. There is no excuse for the existence of ACNA. None. Become Catholic, become Orthodox, become Methodist or some other evangelical denomination, etc. There are lots of choices. The creation of yet another denomination is one of the most horrifying acts of ecclesial frivolity I’ve seen in my lifetime.

I am actually much more certain that the formation of the ACNA was wrong than I am that the Episcopal Church was wrong to move in the direction it has on homosexuality.

Edwin

 

[Thorolfr]

The UMC is, for me, a much more “live” option than the ACNA.

The absolute last thing the Body of Christ needs at this point in human history is more division. There is no excuse for the existence of ACNA. None. Become Catholic, become Orthodox, become Methodist or some other evangelical denomination, etc. There are lots of choices. The creation of yet another denomination is one of the most horrifying acts of ecclesial frivolity I’ve seen in my lifetime.

I am actually much more certain that the formation of the ACNA was wrong than I am that the Episcopal Church was wrong to move in the direction it has on homosexuality.

Edwin

We’ve had the same kind of thing happen among Lutherans. A number of congregations which left the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada (ELCIC) formed a new denomination in 2010 called the North American Lutheran Church (NALC).

 

[benjohnson]

So she said to him that even though we might disagree on an issue such as homosexuality, there is no reason we can not be part of the same family.

All well a good for those that like that sort of thing - but for me, this goes out the window when you have children. I’d prefer to have them surrounded with God’s cohesive morality.

 

[benjohnson]

I am actually much more certain that the formation of the ACNA was wrong than I am that the Episcopal Church was wrong to move in the direction it has on homosexuality.

Couldn’t argument be made that the ACNA is remaining the same and it’s the rest of the church that’s splitting off?

 

[Contarini]

Couldn’t argument be made that the ACNA is remaining the same and it’s the rest of the church that’s splitting off?

Do you mean “the rest of the Episcopal Church”?

Bear in mind that my objection to ACNA is not that they won’t remain in communion with the Episcopal Church, but that if you feel the need to separate from your current communion you ought to be able to find some other orthodox communion to join instead of starting a new one. Wanting to preserve an “Anglican identity” just isn’t good enough. That is, in this context, fundamentally frivolous.

But no, I don’t think the argument works. If, as Lutherans do, you define churches primarily by doctrine, perhaps it does. But I think that’s putting the cart before the horse.

Churches are communities of people who hold doctrines, not doctrinal positions with people attached.

Edwin

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Churches are communities of people who hold doctrines, not doctrinal positions with people attached.

Edwin

Yes.

 

[Contarini]

We’ve had the same kind of thing happen among Lutherans. A number of congregations which left the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada (ELCIC) formed a new denomination in 2010 called the North American Lutheran Church (NALC).

Yes, I know. The Lutheran congregation near me in Indiana (where I used to live) left ELCA and as a result stopped having a joint Eucharist with my (Episcopal) congregation.

Of course the same objections apply. But I’m hard on ACNA because Anglicanism is the tradition to which I’ve belonged since 1998 and because ACNA, or what was becoming ACNA, was at one time a live option for me (especially when I had what turned out to be the incredibly naive dream that the formation of such an “orthodox” body might lead to union with the RCC or the Orthodox). Also, I’ve put up with way too many instances of people looking at me with surprise because i remained Episcopalian and telling me that I wasn’t really “Anglican” because “Anglican” is the self-chosen label of the schismatics.

Edwin

 

[benjohnson]

Churches are communities of people who hold doctrines

Edwin

<mode=“snarky”>

By this definition, a Rotary Club is a church.

The Lutheran definition is that the church is the body of believers where the gospel is proclaimed and sacraments are administered.

From the Lutheran perspective, once you drop the Gospel or the Sacraments, it’s no longer a church. Hence why you could see why use Lutherans would tend to think of the ACNA being the church (or at least embodying it better).