Episcopal Church in US approves same-sex weddings [CWN]

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benjohnson said:
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By this definition, a Rotary Club is a church.
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I should have said “who hold doctrines and practice sacraments,” of course, but was trying to be brief.

My point of course was not that every community is a church (though in a sense, given the original sense of “ecclesia,” it is), but that a church is fundamentally a community of people, not an abstract set of doctrines to which certain people happen to be attached. If you break communion with the body of people with whom you previously had communion, while they are happy to remain in communion with you, then you are leaving them, not they you.
From the Lutheran perspective, once you drop the Gospel or the Sacraments, it’s no longer a church. Hence why you could see why use Lutherans would tend to think of the ACNA being the church (or at least embodying it better).
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I am not arguing that people should stay in a church they believe to be apostate.

I am pointing out that by ACNA standards there are clearly other Christian bodies, already existing, where the Gospel is preached and the sacraments administered, and ACNA members ought to have joined one of those.

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
I am pointing out that by ACNA standards there are clearly other Christian bodies, already existing, where the Gospel is preached and the sacraments administered, and ACNA members ought to have joined one of those.

Edwin
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That certainly would be wise and God pleaseing - “that we all may be one” per John 17:21.

That said, perhaps the members of the ACNA havn’t had enough time to make long term decisions just yet - when the house is burning, sometimes you just have to leave.
 
Contarini said:
I am not arguing that people should stay in a church they believe to be apostate.

I am pointing out that by ACNA standards there are clearly other Christian bodies, already existing, where the Gospel is preached and the sacraments administered, and ACNA members ought to have joined one of those.

Edwin
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Edwin, just out of curiosity, do you think that the Gospel and sacraments are the only two criteria that individuals or communities should consider when leaving one church to find another home?

Could you perhaps address authority and how a church exercises that authority?
 
ComplineSanFran said:
Edwin, just out of curiosity, do you think that the Gospel and sacraments are the only two criteria that individuals or communities should consider when leaving one church to find another home?

Could you perhaps address authority and how a church exercises that authority?
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Well, I also believe in apostolic succession and the importance of union with Rome.

But you may be talking about abuses of authority. I don’t think, in principle, those are reasons to leave. But of course I’m sympathetic to people who find that they have to. It’s just that when they start new communities (Protestantism being the main example) they wind up replicating most of the same problems. So I don’t think schism is the answer.

I would not even want to put the question in terms of “leaving one church to find another home” as if this were a normal thing to do.

Leaving the Christian body you are part of is only justifiable, in my opinion, if you conclude that in some fundamental way it is failing to be the Church.

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
I should have said “who hold doctrines and practice sacraments,” of course, but was trying to be brief.

…a church is fundamentally a community of people, *not an abstract set of doctrines *to which certain people happen to be attached. If you break communion with the body of people with whom you previously had communion, while they are happy to remain in communion with you, then you are leaving them, not they you.
Edwin
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Christ taught that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He didn’t regard Truth as a minor detail, like an “abstract set of doctrines”. Some people are “attached” to the Truth not out of habit but out of love. Whether I am leaving “them” (people) is less important than whether I am faithful to the Truth.
Contarini said:
I am not arguing that people should stay in a church they believe to be apostate.

I am pointing out that by ACNA standards there are clearly other Christian bodies, already existing, where the Gospel is preached and the sacraments administered, and ACNA members ought to have joined one of those.

Edwin
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I agree with the other poster who said when your house is burning, you have to leave the building NOW and then sort through other options. But you don’t want to live long term in the Red Cross shelter.
It would have been better for ACNA to put in a “sunset” provision. For example, the charter might have said "Our purpose is to discern which permanent option to join (RCC, EO, Continuum or some other permanent fixture. If a majority have not reached our common decision within 5 years, all ACNA denominational offices will be disbanded, and officers shall resign. Congregations or member entities will then be encouraged to affiliate from their own discernment.

In my opinion ACNA will evolve into another TEC, only later. (I pray I am wrong, and it doesn’t)
 
commenter said:
Christ taught that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He didn’t regard Truth as a minor detail, like an “abstract set of doctrines”.
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First of all, I never suggested that doctrine is a minor detail.

But more to the point, you are completely reversing the meaning of that passage. Jesus is the Truth. That means that the Truth is a person, not a set of doctrines.

There are true doctrines, and there are false doctrines. It is very, very important to embrace the true doctrines and reject the false doctrines.

But doctrines are not the Truth. Jesus is the Truth. And baptized believers in Jesus are Jesus’ Body on earth.
Some people are “attached” to the Truth not out of habit but out of love. Whether I am leaving “them” (people) is less important than whether I am faithful to the Truth.
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Truth, in Christianity, is a Person.
agree with the other poster who said when your house is burning, you have to leave the building NOW and then sort through other options. But you don’t want to live long term in the Red Cross shelter.
It would have been better for ACNA to put in a “sunset” provision. For example, the charter might have said "Our purpose is to discern which permanent option to join (RCC, EO, Continuum or some other permanent fixture. If a majority have not reached our common decision within 5 years, all ACNA denominational offices will be disbanded, and officers shall resign. Congregations or member entities will then be encouraged to affiliate from their own discernment.
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That would have been an utterly remarkable thing to do. I would have applauded it. But of course they didn’t do that. Because they are just another American denomination. Better than most, from my perspective. But still just another denomination.
In my opinion ACNA will evolve into another TEC, only later. (I pray I am wrong, and it doesn’t)
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I don’t think that’s likely at all. What I see happening much more likely is that it is becoming another bunch of American evangelicals with a vague commitment to liturgy. But that may be too cynical.

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
First of all, I never suggested that doctrine is a minor detail.

But more to the point, you are completely reversing the meaning of that passage. Jesus is the Truth. That means that the Truth is a person, not a set of doctrines.

There are true doctrines, and there are false doctrines. It is very, very important to embrace the true doctrines and reject the false doctrines.

But doctrines are not the Truth. Jesus is the Truth. And baptized believers in Jesus are Jesus’ Body on earth.

Truth, in Christianity, is a Person.

That would have been an utterly remarkable thing to do. I would have applauded it. But of course they didn’t do that. Because they are just another American denomination. Better than most, from my perspective. But still just another denomination.

I don’t think that’s likely at all. What I see happening much more likely is that it is becoming another bunch of American evangelicals with a vague commitment to liturgy. But that may be too cynical.

Edwin
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I hope so, as a non-ACNA type.
 
I agree with chino–the east and west need to come together. What a wonderful reunion of two Godly bodies that would be. Classicar.
 
I’ll be praying for the the believers to get out of the episcopalian church and quickly!
 
Starwarsfan2 said:
I’ll be praying for the the believers to get out of the episcopalian church and quickly!
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Why?

And how are you defining “believers”?

There are some Episcopalians whom, based on their own profession, I would not consider believers. That is to say, they have professed beliefs that are incompatible with basic Christian faith. John Shelby Spong is a notorious example of such a person who managed to become a bishop.

But such people are a minority, and in my experience, if anything, becoming a smaller minority.

Edwin
 
ComplineSanFran said:
I don’t know anyone who has numbers on people who have left the Episcopal Church for either the Roman Catholic Church or Eastern Orthodoxy, especially after key decisions were made on liturgy and on women. Neither do I have numbers of people who left the RCC for Anglicanism. Personally, in my Episcopal parish, we have three former Jesuit priests and I cannot even count the number of former lay Catholics. Nationally (US), my guess is that we are pretty even, and that is being generous to the Catholics.
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I was just going to say that in my parish, many are former Catholics who came over to the church for various reasons.
 
gamewell45 said:
I was just going to say that in my parish, many are former Catholics who came over to the church for various reasons.
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From what people have shared, it seems to be an easy move. The liturgies are virtually identical; the hierarchy is the same; the teachings are familiar. Music is a point of preference for many, I know, and of course things like inclusion and women and moving away from what I hear called ‘guilt-ridden’ theology.

We, on the other hand, get the scholarship of the Jesuit tradition. It’s a good mixture of backgrounds and perspectives in my parish.
 
gamewell45 said:
I was just going to say that in my parish, many are former Catholics who came over to the church for various reasons.
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A priest at my nearest Episcopal church was a Roman Catholic priest prior to becoming an Episcopal priest. At this church there is offered a variety of services. A Sat evening service of reflection and healing with anointing, piano, acoustic guitar, and the bread and wine are passed among each other at the altar. 2 Sun morning services, Rites I & II. And then to wrap up the Sunday motning schedule, a more contemporary informal service with a band. And now recently I just learned the new priest at another nearby Episcopal church had been a Roman Catholic priest too. He has actually initiated a midweek evening adoration and Eucharist service in English, along with their 3 Sunday services. 2 of which are in Spanish and 1 in English. And I had known the previous priest at the latter church had been Roman Catholic before becoming Episcopalian.
 
ComplineSanFran said:
from what I hear called ‘guilt-ridden’ theology.
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That sounds like a good description of what the Catholic Church offers. In my own church (ELCA) the word “sin” is almost never mentioned in any of the sermons, nor is there any mention of hell.
 
Thorolfr said:
That sounds like a good description of what the Catholic Church offers. In my own church (ELCA) the word “sin” is almost never mentioned in any of the sermons, nor is there any mention of hell.
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Well, I think Luther would find that a pretty strange sort of religion:D

Actually, most Catholic sermons I’ve heard don’t talk about hell either, or even that much about sin. There is, often, a rather moralistic, “lecturing” tone, but the only real “fire and brimstone” Catholic sermon I remember hearing was from the SSPX (a traditionalist group whose relationship with Rome is, at best, complicated), and actually that was a really, really good sermon that has shaped how I think about hell ever since.

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
Well, I think Luther would find that a pretty strange sort of religion:D

Actually, most Catholic sermons I’ve heard don’t talk about hell either, or even that much about sin. There is, often, a rather moralistic, “lecturing” tone, but the only real “fire and brimstone” Catholic sermon I remember hearing was from the SSPX (a traditionalist group whose relationship with Rome is, at best, complicated), and actually that was a really, really good sermon that has shaped how I think about hell ever since.

Edwin
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My limited experience of Catholic homilies (short and sweet) very seldom talk about sin and hell. So why is it so prevalent here on CAF?
 
Contarini said:
Bear in mind that my objection to ACNA is not that they won’t remain in communion with the Episcopal Church, but that if you feel the need to separate from your current communion you ought to be able to find some other orthodox communion to join instead of starting a new one. Wanting to preserve an “Anglican identity” just isn’t good enough. That is, in this context, fundamentally frivolous.
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The ACNA has sought to remain in the Worldwide Anglican Communion, not start a new one. In fact, the ACNA is recognized as an Anglican Province and in full communion with 70% of the Worldwide Communion. What Canterbury says on the matter is of less and less importance every year. The opposite can be said for TEC, which is NOT in communion with the MAJORITY of the other provinces. Even with all TEC’s money and coercion in Africa to push liberalism there, the majority of Anglicans worldwide have separated themselves from TEC. The Anglican Realignment under the leadership of GAFCON may just move on without TEC and the CoE.
 
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