Episcopal Church ordains a Transgender Deacon

[JPeter]

That’s why I’m Anglican Church in North America. The Episcopalians left the Church.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

It may be the truth according to your faith, yes. But again they may have a different understanding than you do.

So in light of this, I figure it by reading comments such as:

“In order to do these things, the Episcopal Church of America has to ignore or twist Scripture”

“What in the world is wrong with the Episcopal Church???.. This is getting crazier by the minute. I shudder to even ask what’s next.”

“we have people claiming to be Christians who do such stupid things as this”

If Episcopalians said Catholics twisted Scripture, asked what was wrong with the Catholic Church and said things in Catholicism were getting crazier by the minute, shuddered to even ask what was to occur next in the Catholic Church, and said Catholics claiming to be Christians do stupid things, I’d likewise say the Episcopalians doing so were bashing you, those of your faith and your Church.

Hope that helps how I figured. I hope you had a most blessed Happy Easter! God’s blessings along your faith walk and peace.

But Matt, the Catholic Church isn’t blessing homosexual unions, nor ordaining transsexuals or gay bishops. The Episcopalian Church is doing all of these things. It has to “twist Scripture” in order to justify those choices.

Oh, and thank you for the nice Easter wishes! I hope your Easter was peaceful too.

 

[defenderoftruth]

Transgendered, homosexual, women “priests, deacons, bishops” why even claim to be Christian when you don’t read the bible!

There are scriptures for all of those…(anti-cross dressing/anti-homosexual relations/anti-women “priests”) I’m wondering when they’ll be honest just toss out the bible and call it what it is a social club for pushing liberal agendas…

DoT

 

[Cider]

it took the division of the church to make the Episcopalian faith “truly inclusive.”

oh the irony of that oxymoron.

 

[Rose_Maniple]

But Matt, the Catholic Church isn’t blessing homosexual unions, nor ordaining transsexuals or gay bishops. The Episcopalian Church is doing all of these things. It has to “twist Scripture” in order to justify those choices.

But that’s the thing. If we didn’t think we’d have to “twist Scripture” not to do these things, we wouldn’t be doing them! I’m sure the Holy Father doesn’t think he’s “twisting Scripture” by declaring women in the diaconate an impossibility, despite those pesky female deacons in the Bible!

As William Blake wrote, “Both read the Bible day and night / but thou readst black where I read white.” As impossible as it may be for some on CAF to imagine there really are people who are equally committed to the Bible and (gasp!) reach separate conclusions!

With an issue like transsexuality, which isn’t foreseen in the Bible at all, much less addressed one way or another, I can’t imagine how this could be framed as an issue of “Biblical authority.”

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Rose Maniple;9161260**:

But that’s the thing. If we didn’t think we’d have to “twist Scripture” not to do these things, we wouldn’t be doing them

! I’m sure the Holy Father doesn’t think he’s “twisting Scripture” by declaring women in the diaconate an impossibility, despite those pesky female deacons in the Bible!

As William Blake wrote, “Both read the Bible day and night / but thou readst black where I read white.” As impossible as it may be for some on CAF to imagine there really are people who are equally committed to the Bible and (gasp!) reach separate conclusions!

With an issue like transsexuality, which isn’t foreseen in the Bible at all, much less addressed one way or another, I can’t imagine how this could be framed as an issue of “Biblical authority.”

That was a very interesting sentence. So you believe that you would really have to twist Scripture in order NOT to ordain women, transsexuals, homosexuals, and bless homosexual unions? You believe there is Scriptural support for the ordination of transsexuals? For homosexual priests/bishops?

Tell me where there are female deacons in the Bible. I must have missed that section. Were they disguised as male apostles?

 

[Lokabrenna]

Episcopal Church ordains a Transgender Deacon

Good for her!

 

[CMatt25]

But Matt, the Catholic Church isn’t blessing homosexual unions, nor ordaining transsexuals or gay bishops. The Episcopalian Church is doing all of these things. It has to “twist Scripture” in order to justify those choices.

Oh, and thank you for the nice Easter wishes! I hope your Easter was peaceful too.

Yes Juliane, I was blessed to experience a peaceful Easter and hearing a good homily at the vigil I attended. Well I attended one of the usual earlier ones the parish has. Not the Solemn Easter Vigil one. I am always unclear about this. Some parishes in my area seem to have their regular schedule along with the added later vigil. And others forego their normal schedule. My understanding in a previous yr when this was brought up on CAF, was that to have the regular ones, permission was required. So if that’s the case I assume it was at this parish. It was not a parish I’d ever previously attended on a weekend. Only once before on a weekday. In any case my Easter otherwise was enjoyable as well. Thank you so much for asking!

 

[CMatt25]

As impossible as it may be for some on CAF to imagine there really are people who are equally committed to the Bible and (gasp!) reach separate conclusions!

Which was my point exactly. God bless you and peace.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Yes Juliane, I was blessed to experience a peaceful Easter and hearing a good homily at the vigil I attended. Well I attended one of the usual earlier ones the parish has. Not the Solemn Easter Vigil one. I am always unclear about this. Some parishes in my area seem to have their regular schedule along with the added later vigil. And others forego their normal schedule. My understanding in a previous yr when this was brought up on CAF, was that to have the regular ones, permission was required. So if that’s the case I assume it was at this parish. It was not a parish I’d ever previously attended on a weekend. Only once before on a weekday. In any case my Easter otherwise was enjoyable as well. Thank you so much for asking!

That’s very good, Matt! We usually attend the vigil Mass, so on Easter we are rather moorless…All the parishes around here do the Solemn Vigil where the catechumens and candidates are brought into the Church. It starts about 8:30 p.m. and goes on until at least midnight! But I am glad that so many people are coming into our beloved Church, aren’t you?

We attended a 7 a.m. Mass which was billed as a “quiet” Mass…I didn’t realize that meant ZERO music! It was much like a weekday Mass, but the church was FULL! The only glitch was that my sons could not receive, as no cup was offered (they cannot consume the host as they are on the gluten free diet). We really HAVE to make arrangements at one of the parishes for them to start receiving the low-gluten host, these times when there is no cup are just distressing.

Then we all went to breakfast, which was very nice. And the rest of the day was relaxing for a change!

 

[JHow]

I’m always bemused when I hear similar comments from ostensible Christians, as they betray a decidedly materialist metaphysic. Gender identity is an intricate and complex psychological process - the above quote only makes sense if we assume that the biological realm is the extent of personhood…

But you, in turn, are minimizing our physical selves. We are not beings of pure spirit - the Church holds forth a promise of physical resurrection. To deny your body as somehow not being the “true” you is as much an error as saying we are only material.

 

[Blacksword]

I’m always bemused when I hear similar comments from ostensible Christians, as they betray a decidedly materialist metaphysic. Gender identity is an intricate and complex psychological process - the above quote only makes sense if we assume that the biological realm is the extent of personhood. I wonder if you would say:

I have a feeling not, and yet your foregoing logic does not afford you any readily-apparent grounds for drawing a distinction. We correct cleft palates and heart murmurs all the time without fear of blaspheming God’s intention. In the relatively rare case where a person’s sex and gender happen not to match, it’s far from obvious on a Christian anthropology that we ought to err on the side of privileging the material. And in any event, it’s largely an academic question, since efforts to change gender to align with sex enjoy far less therapeutic success than the reverse, so absent more effective methods in that direction it’s kind of pointless to argue about whether hypothetical developments would be more satisfactory than the current treatments of choice.

I am sure that the Revd Ms. Woodall would counter that the want of all the surgery and hormones in the world could not make her into a man, appearances to the contrary. “Faith alone, though site forsaketh …!”

A false analogy, and obviously so. Physical, biological sex is an immutable characteristic of an individual, more comparable with ethnicity than with status as an orphan, which is a simple fact of lacking parents. And adoption is a legal matter only, not having any similarity to a basic fact of anatomy and biology like sex.

And I’m trying to be charitable, it’s an awful situation such people are in, but I’m very doubtful that invasive dangerous surgery and heavy drugs are the loving response to their plight.

There are certain hard biological facts, and one of them is that if a human has a penis and testicles, produces sperm, and has hormone balances strongly weighted on the side of testosterone, that human is a MALE. If you wish to argue otherwise feel free, but I’m not likely to be convinced.

 

[Curious_Seed]

callmeChris:


For those who claim God makes no mistakes, fair enough. But, there are those of deformation due to genetic makeup.

Are transgendered individuals of that makeup?

No one knows, though everyone has an opinion.

We ordain heterosexual men who were sinners and will be sinners.

What is the impediment to transgender?

Is it the concern that a born female, transgendered, may be ordained?

Is it that transgender is a disorder to simply not be tolerated?

Although acceptance of transgendered individuals is too difficult for those of microscopic Christian love, thank goodness the medical community and Christ are not of like mind.

 

[CopticChristian]

callmeChris:
DSM IV…Criteria for transgender disorder can be seen here…

mental-health-today.com/gender/dsm.htm

What I see are words like “desire”, “Preoccupation” “distress”…

To make the diagnosis, there must be evidence of clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning (Criteria D).

It should be noted that Dr. William Glasser believes that the DSM IV is bunk…I agree…

wglasser.com/who-we-are/dr-glasser

Unlike all other living creatures, only human beings are genetically driven by the need for power. We try to satisfy that need by using what he calls, external control psychology – literally trying to force people to do what we want them to do. This struggle has led to the symptoms described in the DSM-IV. Dr. Glasser teaches that if we can’t figure out how to satisfy our power need by respecting each other, our days on earth are numbered. He offers choice theory to replace external control and has dedicated the remainder of his life to teaching and supporting this idea.

Dr. Glasser espouses…are you ready for this…“Choice Theory & Reality Therapy”…so you can conclude that this person made a choice and could use some reality…

Ain’t it amazin that Christians understand choice and reality…

 

[rodarbal]

God made men and women, not men OR women. Mary Mag sat at the right hand of Jesus, why is she any less than the other apostles. I has been proven she was no prostitute, that was a slam giver to her by Pope Gregory 550 ad. , only recently rescinded. Transgendered people don’ t have a sexuality issue , its a gender orientation issue. And it may be totally normal as xxy. He made us all in His image and we all worship before Him. Who is anyone to judge me. I am androgyne, both male and female, I dress in both clothes and embrace my femininity and masculinity. I am your sister and brother. I have a special gift and path. I will wear what I want to church and try to reach out to those who live in a binary world. Its not a black and white world. I don’t think Jesus would not let me worship Him. Love your brothers and sisters and everyone else.

 

[Viviphilia]

Ugh! What on earth is wrong with some Christian denominations these days? Do they completely and totally ignore the Bible and Sacred Tradition??? Its no wonder so many people think Christianity is a joke when we have people claiming to be Christians who do such stupid things as this.

Isaiah 56:4 For this is what the Lord says:
“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant — 5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will endure forever.

Lots of people ignore the Bible.

 

[Viviphilia]

Ugh! What on earth is wrong with some Christian denominations these days? Do they completely and totally ignore the Bible and Sacred Tradition??? Its no wonder so many people think Christianity is a joke when we have people claiming to be Christians who do such stupid things as this.

Isaiah 56:4 For this is what the Lord says:
“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant — 5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will endure forever.

Lots of people ignore the Bible.

 

[Viviphilia]

With an issue like transsexuality, which isn’t foreseen in the Bible at all, much less addressed one way or another, I can’t imagine how this could be framed as an issue of “Biblical authority.”

But it is foreseen in Matthew 19:12.

Eusebius reported that Origen, following Matthew 19:12 literally, castrated himself.[11] This story was accepted during the Middle Ages and was cited by Abelard in his 12th century letters to Heloise.[12] Scholars within the past century have questioned this, surmising that this may have been a rumor circulated by his detractors.[13] The 1903 Catholic Encyclopedia does not report this.[14] However, renowned historian of late antiquity Peter Brown finds no reason to deny the truth of Eusebius’ claims. They are also accepted by Edward Gibbon in his History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Gibbon asserts that, at least initially, rather than generating censure, Origen’s self-castration was the focus of admiration, and dryly observes that ‘As it was his general practice to allegorise scripture, it seems unfortunate that, in this instance only, he should have adopted the literal sense.’[15]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen

Matthew19:12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

Lots of transgender people castrate themselves or seek castration from doctors. Who else would do such a thing?

 

[Viviphilia]

A false analogy, and obviously so. Physical, biological sex is an immutable characteristic of an individual,

Then what are intersex people, with their ambiguous genitalia? Developmental malfunctions sometimes happen and they produce lots of variations of gender.

And I’m trying to be charitable, it’s an awful situation such people are in, but I’m very doubtful that invasive dangerous surgery and heavy drugs are the loving response to their plight.

It’s only awful because there is so much hatred directed towards transsexuals. Being transsexual in a tolerant environment and with proper medical therapy is not a problem.

There are certain hard biological facts, and one of them is that if a human has a penis and testicles, produces sperm, and has hormone balances strongly weighted on the side of testosterone, that human is a MALE. If you wish to argue otherwise feel free, but I’m not likely to be convinced.

OK, well trans women often get their penis and testicles removed (as in Matthew 19:12) thus no longer producing sperm and testosterone, and we start taking female hormones. Time for you to shift your goal posts.