Episcopal Church: What happened?

[George_Stegmeir]

What everyone in this thread is forgetting, is the developement of American society since the 1940’s.
During the 1950’s a certain Dr. Spock became the great child rearing guru in the U.S.A. His book on child rearing became the “Bible” for zillions of middle class American mothers.
Dr. Spock taught a program of childrearing that was very permissive and forbid corporal punishment (spanking). In other words, he outlawed the traditional discipline by which children is Western Society had been reared for hundreds of years. This philosophy was adopted wholesale by zillions of middle-class mothers across our country.
The result? Millions of spoiled brats who became the amoral hippies of the 1960’s, all on papa’s bucks-because they were “students”…almost none of them had gainful employment. This situation lasted until the shootings of rebellious students by the Ohio National Guard during riots at Kent State University in 1970. It was only then that parents around the country asked “Is this what we are paying for?”… and they clamped down on their children living away from home being supported by them.
Today, since the mid 1970’s, these spoiled brats, or hippies, have now become our public school teachers and college professors who have thoroughly corrupted our society to the secularism we know today in the USA. We have abortion on demand, open pornography, gambling has become a major industry, and liscentious material on the airways has become commonplace.
The Episcopal Church, led by heretical Bishops such as Spahn, sadly, has “kept up with the times” and has completely strayed from the teachings of Holy Scripture. Bear in mind that their current Clergy and Hierarchy were educated for the most part by the former ultra liberal “hippies”.
Similarly, the Anglican Church in the U.K. has strayed, as Society in the U.K. became more secularized, but not to the degree as the Episcopal Church in the USA.
However, today they are ignored by the mass of the British people- to a much greater extent than we have un-catachised and lapsed Catholics in the US.

 

[CMatt25]

Your observations are completely opposite of my experience. Every Episcopalian I know are (i) deeply religious, (ii) very traditional in terms of personal values and (iii) conservative in their political thinking.

That said, none of them are happy with the direction in which their church in the US has gone, especially with respect to moral theology and discipline of clergy.

I addressed this with an Episcopal priest in my area. She said they follow and espouse all the actions taken by TEC and that there has been little dissension in the diocese here and no exodus of churches. Maybe it depends on the area.

 

[CMatt25]

The Episcopal church has not abandoned their Christian focus.

I agree. I recently learned of an Episcopal church near me that seems to have a terrific food and clothing outreach program for the poor. I’ve been searching for an outlet to donate some clothing to. But did not want the poor to be charged even a nominal price for items. I’ve discovered this Episcopal parish that sets out clothing 2 days a week I believe in their food pantry for people to come and take for free. And the priest (not the same one or the same parish I spoke of just ahead of this one) told me she keeps some of the donated clothing in her office because the homeless know they can come into her office anytime she is there for help. I know of a non Episcopal clergyman who said even during the height of the recession that his answer to the poor is to get a job. Which may be a great ultimate ideal. But in the meantime I find what this Episcopal parish is doing to be quite in line with the message Christ preached in Matt 25.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I addressed this with an Episcopal priest in my area. She said they follow and espouse all the actions taken by TEC and that there has been little dissension in the diocese here and no exodus of churches. Maybe it depends on the area.

Perhaps, but you did say “she”, so the perspective and the mindset of the local congregation may be very different in your instance.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I recently learned of an Episcopal church near me that seems to have a terrific food and clothing outreach program for the poor. I’ve been searching for an outlet to donate some clothing to. But did not want the poor to be charged even a nominal price for items. I’ve discovered this Episcopal parish that sets out clothing 2 days a week I believe in their food pantry for people to come and take for free. And the priest (not the same one or the same parish I spoke of just ahead of this one) told me she keeps some of the donated clothing in her office because the homeless know they can come into her office anytime she is there for help.

FWIW - the Episcopal church does seem to be particularly gifted in managing these programs. We are neighbors to our local Episcopal church, and our parish works directly with them in supporting their program. Despite the existence and superior funding of many other local food bank programs, this small church serves 8 - 10 times more people per month in our county.

I know of a non Episcopal clergyman who said even during the height of the recession that his answer to the poor is to get a job.

That is truly sad.

 

[martininthefiel]

Episcopalians and Anglicans have always been the most liberal denomination on morals. They were the first to allow contraception.

(Side note: I thought Episcopalians were always traditionally Democrat. Because weren’t the liturgical churches Democrat and the non-liturgical ones Republican until about 1960? Or is my history just way off? )

The Episcopal Church used to be described as, “The Republican Party on its knees.” The shift toward political liberalism occurred largely in the late ‘60’. At the same time, most Catholics were Democrats.

But it was a different GOP back then. There actually used to be liberal Republicans.

 

[martininthefiel]

Some very random thoughts:

I am a former Anglo-Catholic, now a Roman Catholic.

Women’s Ordination, which I originally supported under the belief that ‘inclusion’ was always good, has led to a ‘feminisation’ of the church, that has undermined its very foundations. Inclusive language has permeated every aspect of the church, leading to creedal changes. God is no longer ‘Father, Son, Holy Spirit’; but ‘Creator, Redeemer, Sustain-er’ or ‘Mother and Father’, or ‘Parent’.

There is almost an embarrassment at being Christian at all–more important to be ‘nice’ or ‘inoffensive’. The drift in some parishes is more toward Unitarianism, not Trinitarian Christianity. Universal-ism has also reared its ugly head. (Everybody gets to go to heaven–so why bother?)

What I find most appalling about the liberal drift of TEC is that it will inevitably lead American church’s exit from the Anglican Communion. Among the liberal factions, there seems to be a growing resentment of the rest of the communion.

The majority of the Anglican Communion is Black and African. The church in Africa is far more conservative than it is in either North America or Europe, and the former cannot buy-into TEC’s new teaching about sexuality. TEC currently has more in common with ELCA than it does with the rest of the Anglican Communion, and both ELCA and TEC’ declining membership will likely lead to a full merger at some point. (ELCA is still more conservative, on the whole.)

Contrary to popular belief, TEC’s ‘parent’ is not the Church of England. After the American Revolution, bishops of COE would not ordain American priests or bishops, so the Scottish Episcopal Church did so. Much of the liturgy came from Scotland, not England. The British Monarch has no authority over the American Church. The Archbishop of Canterbury also has no direct authority, although he does have influence. Technically, the various national churches are self-governing. Which leads to another difficulty.

The Australian and New Zealand Churches are notoriously ‘low-church’ and largely reject Anglo-Catholicism. There is considerable sympathy for lay presidency at the Eucharist in both, and the NZ prayerbook has a lot of Maoari themes in its liturgy. This book has become a favorite of the ‘earthy-crunchy’ set, and it is finding its way into TEC.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Some very random thoughts:

I am a former Anglo-Catholic, now a Roman Catholic.

Women’s Ordination, which I originally supported under the belief that ‘inclusion’ was always good, has led to a ‘feminisation’ of the church, that has undermined its very foundations. Inclusive language has permeated every aspect of the church, leading to creedal changes. God is no longer ‘Father, Son, Holy Spirit’; but ‘Creator, Redeemer, Sustain-er’ or ‘Mother and Father’, or ‘Parent’.

There is almost an embarrassment at being Christian at all–more important to be ‘nice’ or ‘inoffensive’. The drift in some parishes is more toward Unitarianism, not Trinitarian Christianity. Universal-ism has also reared its ugly head. (Everybody gets to go to heaven–so why bother?)
. . . .

martininthefiel,

There are still Anglo Catholic Parishes in TEC in which the Gospel has not been compromised. We don’t use inclusive language, nor have we changed the Creed. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are still Father Son and Holy Spirit. The Trinity is still the Trinity and salvation comes through Christ. We do not believe in universalism.

Again, the liberals get the publicity.

Peace,
Anna

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I am a former Anglo-Catholic, now a Roman Catholic.

Women’s Ordination, which I originally supported under the belief that ‘inclusion’ was always good, has led to a ‘feminisation’ of the church, that has undermined its very foundations. Inclusive language has permeated every aspect of the church, leading to creedal changes. God is no longer ‘Father, Son, Holy Spirit’; but ‘Creator, Redeemer, Sustain-er’ or ‘Mother and Father’, or ‘Parent’.

There is almost an embarrassment at being Christian at all–more important to be ‘nice’ or ‘inoffensive’. The drift in some parishes is more toward Unitarianism, not Trinitarian Christianity. Universal-ism has also reared its ugly head. (Everybody gets to go to heaven–so why bother?)

Thanks for sharing these thoughts. FWIW and IMO - the Catholic Church has long been criticized for being this old-fashioned, out of touch, overly conservative dinosaur. I remember as a kid, growing up in the 70s and 80s, being inundated with messages, direct and subtle, reinforcing this, even from laity and clergy. As you get older and look at the developments in some other churches, such as these, it is rather simple to conclude that the Catholic Church is doing exactly what it needs to be doing - sticking to the message and the Truth.

 

[Indiana_Jones]

Thanks for sharing these thoughts. FWIW and IMO - the Catholic Church has long been criticized for being this old-fashioned, out of touch, overly conservative dinosaur. I remember as a kid, growing up in the 70s and 80s, being inundated with messages, direct and subtle, reinforcing this, even from laity and clergy. As you get older and look at the developments in some other churches, such as these, it is rather simple to conclude that the Catholic Church is doing exactly what it needs to be doing - sticking to the message and the Truth.

 

[CMatt25]

FWIW - the Episcopal church does seem to be particularly gifted in managing these programs. We are neighbors to our local Episcopal church, and our parish works directly with them in supporting their program. Despite the existence and superior funding of many other local food bank programs, this small church serves 8 - 10 times more people per month in our county.

That is truly sad.

The Episcopal church I referred to is small as well. Like your parish does, Byz, there have been non Episcopalian churches working with them too over the yrs. I know a few yrs ago a couple of Roman Catholic parishes did but not sure if they still do.

Yes it was very sad to me to hear that quote during a homily. Peace.

 

[iloveangels]

The Episcopal church is seeking to “move into the 21st century”. With ongoing archeological finds and “reinterpretation” of history through the new findings, a deeper understanding of the developements of Christianity.

Also further understanding of psycology and sexuality has caused questions to be asked in relation to sexual minorities and the role of women in the Church as a whole.

The Episcopal church has not abandoned their Christian focus…they just do not embrace for the most part a “conservative” mindset…in their view their faith is not only informed and understood thru scripture and history…but through science, psycology and human rights.

Conservative Christians of course disagree with them…but in their minds and beliefs…they are being faithful custodians of Truth…in their understanding…Truth is ever unfolding and those biblical injunctions that more conservative believers see as “plain”…they see as cultural and historical mores and beliefs bound in a more “primitive” time and culture.

So…are the quakers going down the drain next?

 

[iloveangels]

Sadly, this is yet another thread which, whether intentional or not, is kicking one who is down. What many people do not realize is that there are many conservative Anglo Catholics in the Episcopal Church, who are just as appalled as you are about the liberal developments in TEC. We stay in the Anglican Communion, working for a return to orthodoxy.

Ironically, Catholics criticize Christians who break away from a Church when disagreements arise. Yet, when we stay despite the troubling direction, we are all lumped together and criticized. While I respect those who choose to leave TEC or even the Anglican Communion altogether; I don’t think the answer for every conservative Episcopalian is to leave the Communion. Each break further fractures the Body of Christ.

We have conservative Priests and Bishops aligning with other conservative Priests and Bishops. However, working within the Communion to restore orthodoxy rarely makes the news.

I do respect the way the Catholic Church has preserved Christian orthodoxy. Yet, the lack of a Magisterium does not always lead to ruin. The Eastern Orthodox seem to be doing just fine without the Pope.

Just keep in mind, many Episcopalians are against the ordination of those in same sex relationships and are against blessing same sex unions.

There are actually very few differences in the beliefs and practice of Catholics and Anglo Catholics.

The Anglican Communion is in crisis. We need more prayers and less ridicule.

Peace,
Anna

I’m sorry you are suffering, Anna. It must be very difficult for you. You have my sympathies.

However, you must realize that it’s not just a local thing, a thing that you can muddle through. The Anglican church and the Episcopalian church are in a crisis. It’s a total disaster at the end of which the Anglican/Episcopalian Church may not exist. That doesn’t mean that Christianity will not survive because it will.

Re your comments: You have to realize one thing. Leaving a protestant church isn’t the same as leaving the Catholic church. And Anglicans are protestants. They aren’t Catholic, meaning precisely that they are not in union with Rome.

 

[iloveangels]

Your observations are completely opposite of my experience. Every Episcopalian I know are (i) deeply religious, (ii) very traditional in terms of personal values and (iii) conservative in their political thinking.

That said, none of them are happy with the direction in which their church in the US has gone, especially with respect to moral theology and discipline of clergy.

I frequently attend educational events at the Berkeley Divinity School at Yale. Despite the affiliated school’s reputation for liberal thought, everyone I have ever met at these events are, IMO, consistently conservative.

It is very puzzling to me, an outsider who admittedly knows these members more than their church, exactly how their church has morphed into something very different than its people.

Any insights from the inside (that is, from practicing Anglicans)?

Well, somebody in the Episcopalian church must be happy with the way things are going. Jefferts-Schori got elected, didn’t she? Let’s be honest here.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Well, somebody in the Episcopalian church must be happy with the way things are going. Jefferts-Schori got elected, didn’t she? Let’s be honest here.

What’s “dishonest” about what I shared? I ended my post asking for the opinions of those who are actually members of the church, who may have a different perspective than those whom I already know. I’ve made no judgments - I simply shared my experience with members of the Anglican church.

Yes, clearly the developments in the church seem to indicate a shift in the tradewinds, but that’s what seems to be such a mystery, especially in light of the witness of the Anglican faithful whom I have come to know well and respect. That is all I said. Please share any thoughts you may have on the “hows” and “whys” relating to these trends, including the appointment of Jefferts-Schori as referenced.

 

[iloveangels]

martininthefiel,

There are still Anglo Catholic Parishes in TEC in which the Gospel has not been compromised. We don’t use inclusive language, nor have we changed the Creed. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are still Father Son and Holy Spirit. The Trinity is still the Trinity and salvation comes through Christ. We do not believe in universalism.

Again, the liberals get the publicity.

Peace,
Anna

Nevertheless, your Presiding Bishop, chief pastor and primate is Katherine Jefferts-Schori.

I know that the Episcopal church is structured differently than the Catholic church, but are you saying that you are so out of union with your own leadership that you dismiss it just as “liberals” who are getting “all the publicity”?

 

[iloveangels]

What’s “dishonest” about what I shared? I ended my post asking for the opinions of those who are actually members of the church, who may have a different perspective than those whom I already know. I’ve made no judgments - I simply shared my experience with members of the Anglican church.

Yes, clearly the developments in the church seem to indicate a shift in the tradewinds, but that’s what seems to be such a mystery, especially in light of the witness of the Anglican faithful whom I have come to know well and respect. That is all I said. Please share any thoughts you may have on the “hows” and “whys” relating to these trends, including the appointment of Jefferts-Schori as referenced.

The picture is being painted here that somehow most Episcopalians are not “liberal,” and that they do not agree with what is going on in the Episcopalian church. I find that beyond incredible. It’s not like Katherine Jefferts-Schori just popped into her office from outer space. She was elected.

What’s really going on the Episcopalian church is a schism. And the group doing most of the complaining is the conservative side. If they were in the majority, would Jefferts-Schori have been elected?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Nevertheless, your Presiding Bishop, chief pastor and primate is Katherine Jefferts-Schori.

I know that the Episcopal church is structured differently than the Catholic church, but are you saying that you are so out of union with your own leadership that you dismiss it just as “liberals” who are getting “all the publicity”?

Respectfully, if you read Anna’s posts in their entirety and totality, you would see she is not saying that at all. Anna has expressed a profound disappointment over the developments in her church.

Is it so hard to believe that the leadership of her church may be out of touch with the mainstream sentiments of the faithful at large? This is at the very heart of the curiosity here.

 

[iloveangels]

Respectfully, if you read Anna’s posts in their entirety and totality, you would see she is not saying that at all. Anna has expressed a profound disappointment over the developments in her church.

Is it so hard to believe that the leadership of her church may be out of touch with the mainstream sentiments of the faithful at large? This is at the very heart of the curiosity here.

What’s really going on has not been sudden. What’s really happening in the Episcopalian Church is a schism of sorts. The vocal side is the “conservative” side if you can call them that. This is why you have heard so much about this from them. They are not and have not been in the majority. Or otherwise Jefferts-Schori and Robinson wouldn’t have been elected. They were not appointed, mind you. They were elected.

PS. ByzCathCantor,
I know she’s dissapointed. I don’t blame her. But that doesn’t change facts.

 

[Publisher]

The picture is being painted here that somehow most Episcopalians are not “liberal,” and that they do not agree with what is going on in the Episcopalian church. I find that beyond incredible. It’s not like Katherine Jefferts-Schori just popped into her office from outer space. She was elected.

IMO, Catholics have a difficult time getting their minds around the idea that members of other faith communities CAN disagree with their leadership. Bishop Katherine seeks to lead the US Episcopal community in faithfulness to their understanding of the gospel. They are on a journey together in their search for Truth.

I have attented worship/eucharist services at the Episcopal church with friends and there IS a lot of discussion outside of the eucharist on what is “right”…but for the most part the extreemly “conservative” members and the very “liberal” members join with one another around the alter to share in the sacrament of unity…“It is Christ who asks you to the Sacred Meal…it is Christ who welcomes you to His Table…let us join together in Him and share the Sacred Meal.”