Episcopal Church: What happened?

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BTW, get the rest of the paragraph:
  1. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58
and then follows your quote.

Read the whole thing and stop proof-texting me like a protestant.
 
iloveangels said:
Read your quote VERY carefully.

It says that the Anglican church can be called a Church, NOT that it can be called a Catholic Church. As opposed to the Baptists, who may not even be able to call themselves a Church, but rather should call themselves a community or a sect or something of that nature–this is contained elsewhere in the document.
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This was offered in reference to the assertion that Orthodox Churches are protestant. The Catholic Church teaches otherwise.

Yes, it is the position of the Catholic Church that Apostolic succession was broken in the case of the Anglican church. Yet, in its great mercy, the Catholic Church has been able to welcome thousands of Anglicans back into the Communion via the Personal Ordinariates.
 
Indiana_Jones said:
But if one who is not Catholic reads & believes Catholic teaching on a number of issues (as opposed to Protestant interpretations of those issues), that’s not the worst place to be, right? 🙂 I think that’s the way the word “Catholic” is being used here. And, Anglo-Catholics often do identify CC/EO/AC as branches of the original Catholic Church. Even if Catholics don’t agree with that division or usage, they’ll still continue to do it. 😃
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You are being well catechized as you prepare for your reception into the Catholic Church. We pray for you and your journey in faith.
 
1voice said:
Comments? Thoughts?

This subject, IMHO, would make a very good thesis for a sociologist or a religious historian. I often wondered why universities like Harvard and Yale, whose founding documents state boldly that the purpose of the founders was to establish and teach the truth of God written in the Holy Scriptures … became exactly the opposite and in fact oppose the Bible that the founders loved.

It has happened again. Before our eyes, in this generation, we have seen the emasculation of a former bastion of Christianity. What was the seed? Who allowed it to be watered and to grow to the point that it squelched the truth at every opportunity… and finally morphed into an entirely unrecognizable institution.

I would appreciate it if the Catholic friends and neighbors that visit here would refrain from Protestant bashing;) … or starting a conversation about how Protestants will be Protestants … Thnx in advance. This social trend affects all of our families.
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o.0

It seems you’ve done quite a bit of bashing on your own, both in what I have quoted and in what you have written after that.

I doubt that Harvard and Yale somehow, as institutions, oppose the Bible. Nor do I think that The Episcopal Church has been emasculated. And certainly you offered no reason for us to believe either of those things are true.
 
iloveangels said:
The Eastern Orthodox church is the result of an early schism from Catholicism. Technically it is protestant, but because it predates the reformation, we don’t usually refer to it as such. It is not in union with Rome.

Some of the regional churches that split at or near the time of this Eastern schism have in the centuries since then, come back into juridical, theological and practical union with Rome, and these constitute the other rites in the Catholic church. There are 21 of them in addition to the most populous rite which is the Roman Rite. The other rites tend to be small and regional but they are in union with Rome. The other rites were allowed to keep the traditions that they had at the time of entry that did not contradict union with Rome and Catholic theology and practice.

Churches that split from Rome during the Reformation, and that includes the Episcopalian/Anglican church, are considered protestants in the true sense of the word. None of them are in union with Rome and this includes the Episcopalian/Anglican church.

There is more to being Catholic than having some kind of foggy romanticism about being Catholic which is what you see with Anglicans and Episcopalians. There are juridical and practical issues, and the Episcopalian/Anglican church doesn’t have any of those in place. Theologically, we’re also somewhat different. You mentioned yourself about the theology of marriage. It’s different, and that’s just the start.

PS. Like the Baptists and Presbyterians have anything to say about all of this. 😛 They’re not in union with Rome either.
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Goodness me iloveangels, you seem very defensive and touchy today. First of all you are changing the goalposts of your original definition. You are the only person I know who suggests that orthodox might be protestant. What I was trying to do in my post is explain how the definition of catholic might look from an Anglican perspective. You don’t hold a monopoly on definitions. Finally, I only raised the Baptist and Presbyterian example because you originally claimed that other protestants regard Anglicans as protestant which is patently inaccurate. I suggest you follow Harper Lee’s suggestion to put yourself in other people’s shoes. It can be quite humbling.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
This was offered in reference to the assertion that Orthodox Churches are protestant. The Catholic Church teaches otherwise.

Yes, it is the position of the Catholic Church that Apostolic succession was broken in the case of the Anglican church. Yet, in its great mercy, the Catholic Church has been able to welcome thousands of Anglicans back into the Communion via the Personal Ordinariates.
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Yes, with a period of catechesis and practical learning, Anglicans are coming into the Catholic church. We welcome them, but they must understand that they are truly changing churches and something substantial is happening here. They must recognize the primacy of Rome, for instance, and put themselves under obedience to the Church in union with Rome. It’s an essential part of being a Catholic-- it is not optional.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
Anna, while I do not condone these bland condemnations, I can understand objections from Catholics about use of the proper name Catholic. As you know, those who are members of the Catholic Church get knocked left and right from all sides for being Catholic, so the proper name also connotes a strong sense identity for practicing, faithful Catholics. I trust in Christian charity that you can appreciate that point.

That said, we recognize that Catholic was originally used to mean “universal” and is a term used for purposes other than refering to members of the Catholic Church. In charity, I assume that you use it to refer to the purity of your beliefs with respect to essential elements of faith.

FWIW - from everything you have wrote and shared, you seem more Catholic than Anglican to me!

What is certainly less forgiving is the utterly improper use of the term “protestant” to refer to all those who are not members of the Catholic Church. As an Eastern Catholic, I have even been told many times in my life that I am not Catholic by fellow Catholics of the Latin tradition. These are views which must be corrected, as they do nothing but harm the cause of ecumenism to which we are all called by the Catholic Church and Christ directly, who wishes us all to “be as one”.

I will be monitoring this thread closely, waiting for the inevitable reactions of our faithful Orthodox contributors to CAF, who will certainly be pleased to see that they have once again been branded “protestant”.
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ByzCathCantor,

I do certainly understand what you are saying; and it is true that Anglicans do use Catholic in a more universal sense. However, Anglo Catholics share so many Catholic beliefs. As I asked iloveangels: How many Protestants believe in the Communion of the Saints, The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and requests for her Intercession?

There are very few beliefs that separate us from Catholics in Communion with Rome. If I believed the Pope truly has the authority he claims; I would certainly convert to Catholicism. But I haven’t had the best experiences when it comes to leaders.

I grew up in Southern Baptist Churches. One must embrace SB doctrines without question. Through prayer and study, I found the leaders were misleading in so many ways.

Finally, I was confirmed in an Anglo Catholic Parish in TEC, only to find leaders, once again, leading people way off the path. My Parish is like an oasis of orthodoxy in the midst of a liberal storm in TEC.

So, the thought of “submitting religious mind and will” to the Pope does not seem all that safe, especially looking back through history. There were Popes who were less than a shining example of the Christian faith. That is not unique to the Catholic Church. History is a rather disturbing thing when one looks at the things done in the name of our Lord.

So, I am where I am. I can’t force myself to embrace Catholicism. I don’t want to enter the Catholic Church, simply because I am running from TEC. I respect the Catholic faith far too much for that. I would have to embrace Catholicism with my whole heart. Trust me, conversion would make my life so much easier; but “easier” is not a reason to convert.

It’s complicated.

Anna

P.S. Notice I identify myself as Anglican Catholic in the Anglican Communion, so that there is no misunderstanding.
 
liturgyluver said:
Goodness me iloveangels, you seem very defensive and touchy today. First of all you are changing the goalposts of your original definition. You are the only person I know who suggests that orthodox might be protestant. What I was trying to do in my post is explain how the definition of catholic might look from an Anglican perspective. You don’t hold a monopoly on definitions. Finally, I only raised the Baptist and Presbyterian example because you originally claimed that other protestants regard Anglicans as protestant which is patently inaccurate. I suggest you follow Harper Lee’s suggestion to put yourself in other people’s shoes. It can be quite humbling.
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I’m a convert. I was, for a time in my earlier life, a Protestant. I like protestants, I do. I respect them overall. Most of them have the honesty not to pretend to be practicing Catholics when they’re not.

The topic of this post is really the mess that the Anglicans are in these days = Anglicans: what happened?

This pretending to be something one isn’t is part of what happened. This contributes to the mess the Episcopalians are in. They have high standards for liturgy and so on, which is laudable and lovely. But they have very low standards for substantial meaning and for standing up for the truth, which are not laudable, but low. And those low standards have come home to roost. And now they have a mess they don’t know how to deal with.

BTW, as a former protestant, I can tell you first hand: Other protestants view Anglicans/Episcopalians as fellow Protestants. My grandfather was a Protestant minister. I know a lot of people from other Protestant congregations. Episcopalians are protestants. They might fancy themselves “special” but that doesn’t change facts, they’re protestants and they don’t answer to Rome.
 
iloveangels said:
I’m a convert. I was, for a time in my earlier life, a Protestant. I like protestants, I do. I respect them overall. But most of them have the honesty not to pretend to be practicing Catholics when they’re not.

The topic of this post is really the mess that the Anglicans are in these days = Anglicans: what happened?

This pretending to be something one isn’t is part of what happened. This contributes to the mess the Episcopalians are in. They have high standards for liturgy and so on, which is laudable and lovely. But they have very low standards for substantial meaning and for standing up for the truth, which are not laudable, but low. And those low standards have come home to roost. And now they have a mess they don’t know how to deal with.
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iloveangels,

You are stepping way over the line on this thread. When you make these sweeping statements about the whole of TEC, you are bearing false witness against many. You aren’t really hearing anything I am saying. So, it’s rather pointless to continue. . . .

Anna
 
Anna_Scott said:
iloveangels,

You are stepping way over the line on this thread. When you make these sweeping statements about the whole of TEC, you are bearing false witness against many. You aren’t really hearing anything I am saying. So, it’s rather pointless to continue. . . .

Anna
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Did I hit a nerve?

This thread is about “Episcopal Church: What Happened”, isn’t it?
 
iloveangels said:
The Eastern Orthodox church is the result of an early schism from Catholicism. Technically it is protestant, but because it predates the reformation, we don’t usually refer to it as such.
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Why not if it’s technically the case? It sounds like then technically reformation began long before it’s referred to have.
 
Oh listen, CMatt,

There have been heresies and schisms from the first days of the Catholic Church.

Remember the Arians? circa 325BC. The Arians were within the Church prior to the Council of Nicea. After that some split off with their pet ideas, you know. This is not new.

Then there were the Albigensians, Manicheans, etc etc etc. tons of different groups have spun off from Rome.

This is where all the other churches essentially come from. Over time, people get pet ideas and leave. It’s regrettable but it happens. Sometimes they come back, which is really good, but they don’t always.
 
Anna_Scott said:
ByzCathCantor,

I do certainly understand what you are saying; and it is true that Anglicans do use Catholic in a more universal sense. However, Anglo Catholics share so many Catholic beliefs. As I asked iloveangels: How many Protestants believe in the Communion of the Saints, The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and requests for her Intercession?

There are very few beliefs that separate us from Catholics in Communion with Rome. If I believed the Pope truly has the authority he claims; I would certainly convert to Catholicism. But I haven’t had the best experiences when it comes to leaders.

I grew up in Southern Baptist Churches. One must embrace SB doctrines without question. Through prayer and study, I found the leaders were misleading in so many ways.

Finally, I was confirmed in an Anglo Catholic Parish in TEC, only to find leaders, once again, leading people way off the path. My Parish is like an oasis of orthodoxy in the midst of a liberal storm in TEC.

So, the thought of “submitting religious mind and will” to the Pope does not seem all that safe, especially looking back through history. There were Popes who were less than a shining example of the Christian faith. That is not unique to the Catholic Church. History is a rather disturbing thing when one looks at the things done in the name of our Lord.

So, I am where I am. I can’t force myself to embrace Catholicism. I don’t want to enter the Catholic Church, simply because I am running from TEC. I respect the Catholic faith far too much for that. I would have to embrace Catholicism with my whole heart. Trust me, conversion would make my life so much easier; but “easier” is not a reason to convert.

It’s complicated.

Anna

P.S. Notice I identify myself as Anglican Catholic in the Anglican Communion, so that there is no misunderstanding.
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Everything is complicated. It’s why I post so much.

GKC
 
Indiana_Jones said:
But if one who is not Catholic reads & believes Catholic teaching on a number of issues (as opposed to Protestant interpretations of those issues), that’s not the worst place to be, right? 🙂 I think that’s the way the word “Catholic” is being used here. And, Anglo-Catholics often do identify CC/EO/AC as branches of the original Catholic Church. Even if Catholics don’t agree with that division or usage, they’ll still continue to do it. 😃
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Yes, Indiana, my friend (so glad to hear from you); we will continue to do it. 😃

Peace,
Anna
 
GKC said:
Everything is complicated. It’s why I post so much.

GKC
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The key belief that Anglicans don’t share is the primacy of the successor of Peter, who is the Pope. This is NOT an optional belief. This is exactly my point. You can’t be Catholic if you don’t assent to this and put yourself under the authority of this.

Arians called themselves Catholic too. They insisted that they were more Catholic than the Council Fathers at Nicea. That was their claim, while in the Church, and even after they left it. They were wrong. And they were on the wrong side of history. They’re gone now.

This modern claim of some protestants to be more Catholic than Catholics is no different, and it’s just as erroneous.

I mean no one harm, but it’s important to be honest about these things, even if it’s not what some people are used to. Honesty and clarity matters. And this is what’s at the root of the Episcopalian troubles.
 
Anna_Scott said:
Yes, Indiana, my friend (so glad to hear from you); we will continue to do it. 😃

Peace,
Anna
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Consider Apostolicae Curae. Does that judgement disturb you?

Neither does what the RCC says, when I say Catholic, in the Anglican tradition.

And I don’t engage in tussles on it.Sometimes I do a little history of AC.

GKC
 
Anna_Scott said:
iloveangels,

No. You’re behaving like a school yard bully. That’s what happened.

Anna
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Telling the truth is behaving like a schoolyard bully? Pointing out the essential details that are being glossed over is behaving badly? I disagree. There are many essential things here that are being glossed over.

All I’m doing is telling the whole truth. It’s important. As the Episcopalians no doubt are finding out from their troubles as their mess goes through its inevitable stages…if they have the courage and honesty to confront it.
 
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