Episcopal Church: What happened?

[ByzCathCantor]

No, not at all. Lumping the Orthodox or Catholics into the same group with say the Baptists is a highly disingenuous apologetic tactic.

Understood - thanks. And in regards to the subject of this thread, how do the Orthodox Churches view the Anglican Church? By comparison, it is the basic Catholic position that Apostolic succession was broken, given the invalidity of holy orders which impacted the broader sacramental life of the Anglican Church. Yet, it is not seen to be irreconcilable, as is evident by the relatively recent establishment of the two Personal Ordinariates.

 

[iloveangels]

Greek, not Russian, but that really doesn’t make a huge difference, since we are in communion.

Yes, I feel that the schism has come largely as an accident. Unfortunately, it was never fixed and we have moved in rather different directions since. Perhaps one day we will drift close enough again for a resumption of communion, although how such an event would work with the rather exclusive ecclesiology of either Church is a bit of a mystery.

That would be a very good thing. It was a tragic event in the history of Christianity. I honestly don’t know how it would work either at this point, though.

 

[Anna_Scott]

iloveangels,

The fact that the thread has wandered a bit is not a problem as far as I’m concerned. It would be up to the 1voice , our OP to object.

In fact, there are many important issues that spring from our thread question regarding what happened to the Episcopal Church.

So, iloveangels, I will ask you a very direct question. It is a question that you should be able to answer with ease, since you are convinced that Anglo Catholics are really Protestants.

If I’m not able to embrace the idea of “submitting religious mind and will” to the Roman Pontiff; and I abandon TEC and the Anglican Communion altogether; where else within Christendom do I go to find the following:

The Nicene Creed including the filioque

The belief in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church----Catholic (universal, in all times and all places); Apostolic (participating in the Apostles’ teachings (the Scriptures) and fellowship, the breaking of bread (Holy Eucharist) and the prayers (Acts 2:42)

Seven sacraments through which God imparts Graces: Baptism (through which sins are forgiven and we are reborn; including infant Baptism), Holy Eucharist (the Real Presence-transubstantiation), Reconciliation, Confirmation, Holy Orders, Matrimony, and Holy Unction

The Blessed Virgin Mary as theotokos and mother of God

The Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary

The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary

The Intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary

The Communion of the Saints

The Divine Inspiration of the Deuterocanonical Books

The important role of Tradition

Peace,
Anna

Well obviously they are found in your church, which is protestant, or you wouldn’t be quoting them to me.

I might suggest to you that if you have beliefs that are characteristic of Episcopalians and you refuse to give on the authority issue, that you are stuck in the Episcopalian church until you change something.

iloveangels,

In other words, you can’t name even one Protestant Church.

I’ll make it easier for you. I’ll narrow the list to 4.

If I’m not able to embrace the idea of “submitting religious mind and will” to the Roman Pontiff; and I abandon TEC and Anglicanism altogether; where else within Christendom do I go to find the following:

The Nicene Creed including the filioque

The Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary

The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary

The Intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary

Anna

 

[iloveangels]

Understood - thanks. And in regards to the subject of this thread, how do the Orthodox Churches view the Anglican Church? By comparison, it is the basic Catholic position that Apostolic succession was broken, given the invalidity of holy orders which impacted the broader sacramental life of the Anglican Church. Yet, it is not seen to be irreconcilable, as is evident by the relatively recent establishment of the two Personal Ordinariates.

Yes, with respect to Anglicans, Apostolic succession was broken as well as union.

The situation between Anglicans/Episcopalians and Catholics is not irreconcilable though, for those who are willing to be regularized, and we now have a structure especially for them, which should be very helpful to them, as they enter the Catholic Church.

 

[iloveangels]

I have a question for you, Caravadossi,

If Anna presented herself to your pastor next Sunday, and said, “I want to be Orthodox,” what would she have to do to become one?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Yes, with respect to Anglicans, Apostolic succession was broken as well as union.

The situation between Anglicans/Episcopalians and Catholics is not irreconcilable though, for those who are willing to be regularized, and we now have a structure especially for them, which should be very helpful to them, as they enter the Catholic Church.

But as you concluded before, Anglicans are Protestants, which means they have discarded essential elements of the Deposit of Faith in favor of their own understanding. By that definition, they cannot be reconciled.

And, I was asking for the Orthodox point of view …

 

[ByzCathCantor]

If Anna presented herself to your pastor next Sunday, and said, “I want to be Orthodox,” what would she have to do to become one?

And what if she presented herself to your parish priest?

 

[Cavaradossi]

Understood - thanks. And in regards to the subject of this thread, how do the Orthodox Churches view the Anglican Church? By comparison, it is the basic Catholic position that Apostolic succession was broken, given the invalidity of holy orders which impacted the broader sacramental life of the Anglican Church. Yet, it is not seen to be irreconcilable, as is evident by the relatively recent establishment of the two Personal Ordinariates.

I’m not sure. The Russian Orthodox had rather good relations with the Anglicans back in the early 20th century. They were actually close to begin negotiations for entering into communion, when suddenly the Russians pulled out. From what I have heard, it seems that they were not quite aware of what the Anglicans believed (the more protestant sections of the 39 articles). Needless to say, with the current problems in the Anglican communion, they are not really an attractive partner for talks about resumption of communion.

As for Apostolic Succession, I think the Orthodox take a different approach than the Catholics. The Orthodox tend not to think in terms of validity, but rather in terms of being in the church or not. Technically, all sacraments performed outside of the Church should be assumed to be without grace (this is St. Basil’s position on baptism outside of the Church in his first canonical epistle). However, it is possible, through economy, for a bishop to decide to receive somebody baptized outside of the Church into the Church through Chrismation only, with the assumption that whatever grace heterodox sacraments may lack, the Church can supply it through Chrismation. This also seems to carry over to priesthood as well, so it seems to be common practice, at least for the Russians, to receive Catholic priests through vesting. I am unsure if they also do this for the Anglicans, but it is possible. I do know that ROCOR allows Anglican convert parishes to use a liturgy written by St. Tikhon, who basically took the mass from the BCP and added in an epiclesis.

The Greeks by the way, are less uniform. You will find some bishops who demand baptism of all converts and others who will accept the baptisms of other Christian groups, so long as they are trinitarian. Both approaches are in accordance with St. Basil’s first canonical epistle, so it seems. Consequently, unless a church-wide policy is set by a synod, leaving it to the discretion of individual bishops will remain the common practice.

 

[iloveangels]

But as you concluded before, Anglicans are Protestants, which means they have discarded essential elements of the Deposit of Faith in favor of their own understanding. By that definition, the cannot be reconciled.

And, I was asking for the Orthodox point of view …

Anglicans, like all protestants, can be reconciled if they are willing to convert and regularize. I myself am a convert to Catholicism from Protestantism. I changed my views over time and converted to the Catholic faith.

 

[iloveangels]

And what if she presented herself to your parish priest?

She would undergo lengthy catechesis, including catechesis about the authority in Rome, and she would be expected to make a profession of faith. Evidence of conversion would be expected and she would be expected to make a confession. And then she would be brought into the church with sacraments.

We do accept baptism from most other Christian communities as long as there is evidence that the correct Trinitarian formulation was used. If there is any question, however, it’s done conditionally, to make sure. We don’t accept confirmations from other church bodies, however, for obvious reasons.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I’m not sure …

… yet managed as always to give a complete yet concise and honest answer - thanks!

 

[Anna_Scott]

I have a question for you, Caravadossi,

If Anna presented herself to your pastor next Sunday, and said, “I want to be Orthodox,” what would she have to do to become one?

iloveangels,

Are you working on finding that one option to answer my question?

Anna

 

[Cavaradossi]

I have a question for you, Caravadossi,

If Anna presented herself to your pastor next Sunday, and said, “I want to be Orthodox,” what would she have to do to become one?

My parish priest? She would have to go through our catechism and probably show up for at least a year before being Chrismated (it is the policy of our metropolis to accept heterodox baptisms, some other bishops, however, do not). Then she would be a member of the Church. To my knowledge, all non Eastern Orthodox would be received in this fashion, although it might be different for somebody who was Oriental Orthodox who wished to convert. Oriental Orthodox to Eastern Orthodox (and vice-versa) converts, however, seem to be rather rare, although intermarriage is common.

 

[Indiana_Jones]

…I’ll make it easier for you. I’ll narrow the list to 4.

If I’m not able to embrace the idea of “submitting religious mind and will” to the Roman Pontiff; and I abandon TEC and Anglicanism altogether; where else within Christendom do I go to find the following:

The Nicene Creed including the filioque

The Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary

The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary

The Intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary

Anna

I’ll take a wild guess that there are not too many options out there

 

[Cavaradossi]

… yet managed as always to give a complete yet concise and honest answer - thanks!

It’s hard, because there are no easily obtained Orthodox documents about Anglicans like Apostolicae Curae. When in doubt, the correct answer is, “ask the diocesan bishop in your area,” which is why I usually make it clear that I’m not giving a definitive answer, just a nice historical overview.

 

[iloveangels]

iloveangels,

Are you working on finding that one option to answer my question?

Anna

I gave you your answer, Anna.

IF you have that laundry list of stuff but no intention of coming into union with Rome, you’re probably stuck in the Episcopalian church unless and until you decide to change your mind about some of it.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I have a question for you, Caravadossi,

If Anna presented herself to your pastor next Sunday, and said, “I want to be Orthodox,” what would she have to do to become one?

And what if she presented herself to your parish priest?

She would undergo lengthy catechesis, including catechesis about the authority in Rome, and she would be expected to make a profession of faith. Evidence of conversion would be expected and she would be expected to make a confession. And then she would be brought into the church with sacraments.

We do accept baptism from most other Christian communities as long as there is evidence that the correct Trinitarian formulation was used. If there is any question, however, it’s done conditionally, to make sure. We don’t accept confirmations from other church bodies, however, for obvious reasons.

My parish priest? She would have to go through our catechism and probably show up for at least a year before being Chrismated (it is the policy of our metropolis to accept heterodox baptisms, some other bishops, however, do not). Then she would be a member of the Church. To my knowledge, all non Eastern Orthodox would be received in this fashion, although it might be different for somebody who was Oriental Orthodox who wished to convert. Oriental Orthodox to Eastern Orthodox (and vice-versa) converts, however, seem to be rather rare, although intermarriage is common.

Glad you all are working on options for me, but I am still in the room.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

I gave you your answer, Anna.

IF you have that laundry list of stuff but no intention of coming into union with Rome, you’re probably stuck in the Episcopalian church unless and until you decide to change your mind about some of it.

You didn’t answer my question. You can not name even one Protestant Church.

Anna

 

[iloveangels]

Glad you all are working on options for me, but I am still in the room.

Anna

We’re not working out options for you. That’s your job.

We are talking about the relationships between our various communions, including how we regard each other in some detail, and what it takes to move from one communion to another.

You might find it instructive though. It’s interesting.

 

[iloveangels]

You didn’t answer my question. You can not name even one Protestant Church.

Anna

Anna. I gave you a protestant church. It’s called the Episcopalian church. You’re in the right place it seems and maybe you should just stay there with the views you have. It’s a perfect fit, apparently.