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iloveangels
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:hug3: (me neither)
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GKC
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Suddenly, people talking to each other.
Good.
GKC
Good.
GKC
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martininthefiel
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I was perfectly content until I moved from one diocese to another where there were fewer Anglo-Catholic options. The essential Protestantism of my new diocese screamed-out at me every Sunday. We had a rector at a prominent parish who didn’t know what the ‘Altar or Repose’ on Maundy Thursday is–I, a layperson, had to explain it to him. Experimental liturgies kept coming into the picture, some with Eucharistic Prayers that did not contain all the required elements of the Consecration. Inclusive language kept creeping into the Creed. The filoquy disappeared. A Lutheran Pastor, with a fair amount of contempt for Catholicism, became part of the permanent staff. It was time to go.
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Anna_Scott
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martininthefiel,
If this happened to me, I would think it was time to go too. As much as I believe in working for change within; if your rector isn’t on board, it is truly a losing battle.
If it came down to it; I would consider an Anglican Church in my community that joined the Anglican Mission in the Americas, a missionary movement of Rwanda. However, their break with TEC was a painful one. Part of their congregation left with the Rector and part stayed in the Episcopal Church. I can understand the reasons for both decisions. The Rector, and members of his congregation who broke away with him, met in a local school. They eventually bought a church in a different community, about 8 miles away.
Episcopal Churches are usually very involved with service in the community. So, the break came with a high price in the life of the community and certainly in the lives of a congregation torn apart in a very public division. The question is, was it worth it? Could the Rector have stayed and worked within for a return to orthodoxy? Of course, this is a question I cannot answer. He did what he believed was right, and I respect that.
However, if all conservatives jump ship, there is little hope for TEC. More liberals, both churched and unchurched, will continue to flock to the liberal appeal. Eventually, the conservative voices disappear. IMHO, this is what is happening to the Episcopal Church; this is how a Church is hijacked.
So, as I said before, it’s complicated; each of us must act according to our conscience; and I don’t think the decision is the same for everyone. It is also fair to say that my opinion may be different as time passes.
Peace,
Anna
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GKC
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RyanBlack
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I am member of one of the CHURCHES that is in union with Rome, the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh.
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martininthefiel
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It was a very painful decision. I started RCIA three different times, and chickened-out, before going through with it.
I never considered myself that much of a conservative. What I was, and am, is a believer in the centrality of the Eucharist in Christian life, and I felt this less and less the case in my new diocese. I tried several other parishes, and they all came-up wanting, in part, because the homilies I heard often bordered on heresy ( I even heard the word ‘magic’ used one Sunday.)
The worst part was the intolerance on the part of the liberals. Every time I questioned anything, I was looked-at as some sort of right-wing lunatic, which I certainly am not. When I tried to schedule a confession, and I was repeated put-off, or offered counseling in its place. When I suggested that I thought abortion was wrong, I was told that this was a ‘fallen and imperfect world’. (Really? Does that apply to murder and rape, as well?)
I won’t even discuss the response to my stating a belief in Transubstantiation. It involved being referred to the 39 Articles (which are not Canonically binding, in any event).
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RyanBlack
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I’m aware that there’s a process, but having a cumbersome process by which one is permitted to change ritual churches, even apart from the question of marriage, is rather different that saying, as you previously did, that it can’t be done unless you marry someone from a different ritual church.
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Della
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Actually, the Church doesn’t claim that it is the only manifestation of the 4 signs of the Church but rather that all those who are baptized with the proper trinitarian rite are also part of the Church, though imperfectly united with it.
Examination of the truths of the Church made me realize that there must be an authority to decide matters of faith and morals or both can be subverted, twisted, and even denied, as they have been by those who will not have Christ’s appointed leader to guide them, within and without of the Church.
The Church recognizes the apostolic succession of the Orthodox, no matter what they call themselves, because it is real. It does not recognize the Anglican succession, which makes them apart from the Church as any other Protestant body with a valid baptism no matter how close they may be in many of their beliefs and practices.
The problem within Anglicanism is without the charism of infallibility (which they deny anyway) or true apostolic succession they are wandering all over the place because they are sheep without a shepherd. Sadly, we see the results–reversal of doctrines and morals they held for centuries in favor of the spirit of the age. This is a death sentence for them as a Christian body if they don’t turn it around and I don’t see that happening any time soon.
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Della
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Actually, there are “high” Lutherans that believe all that you do, but really there’s no need to go searching for them when you have all you want where you are.
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iloveangels
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Actually that’s true. I used to be a Missouri Synod Lutheran. If you consider Lutherans, you have to be careful to get the right synod. There’s a lot of difference between the various groups. There’s been mergers of some of them and so on, resulting in leftist characteristics for some. I don’t follow it like I used to, so I can’t give you a lot of detail without looking it up. I know the Missouri Synod is still the most stable of all of them.Actually, there are “high” Lutherans that believe all that you do, but really there’s no need to go searching for them when you have all you want where you are.
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GKC
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Except, in theory, on Ordinands of the Church of England, IAW the Act of Subscription of 1571. Anglicans in general, no.
GKC
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cmodrmac
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There are some misconceptions here-the Episcopal Church is in the uncomfortable position of the “via media”. The Church does not base its teachings on sola scriptura alone but also includes Tradition and Reason as the other parts of the 3 legged stool-It is not Roman Catholic but neither is it purely Protestant-it is a buffer between the two Traditions and is really taking a pounding. As commented on issues of human sexuality are a central issue in the issues confronting the church.
70% of Episcopalians are converts with the largest percentage coming from the Roman Catholic Church -the schism of the American Anglicans has made the Episcopal Church increasingly liberal - the Episcopal Church has always had a core of sane fair minded laity who are perplexed by it all-
Our catholic and Protestant brother Churches should pray for us -so that some compromise will occur before the Church breaks up further
70% of Episcopalians are converts with the largest percentage coming from the Roman Catholic Church -the schism of the American Anglicans has made the Episcopal Church increasingly liberal - the Episcopal Church has always had a core of sane fair minded laity who are perplexed by it all-
Our catholic and Protestant brother Churches should pray for us -so that some compromise will occur before the Church breaks up further
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iloveangels
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Well that was straight off Google, huh? I saw the same little booklet.
It wouldn’t be hard to swamp you guys with dissidents. The Episcopalian church is TINY. I had no idea til I checked the Pew Report how tiny the Episcopalian church really is. Wow.
70% converts and yet your total population is dropping. You must have some turnover.
It wouldn’t be hard to swamp you guys with dissidents. The Episcopalian church is TINY. I had no idea til I checked the Pew Report how tiny the Episcopalian church really is. Wow.
70% converts and yet your total population is dropping. You must have some turnover.
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GKC
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iloveangels
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You’ve got a big problem there.
No wonder you don’t have stability with turnover like that.
No wonder you don’t have stability with turnover like that.
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15thClub
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What happened to the Episcopal Church? Ask a mainline Episcopalian who haas stayed in the church and I bet they’ll tell you absolutely nothing and that they are perfectly happy what has happened. The fact that they have a woman as their Presiding Bishop or consecrated an openly gay priest to be Bishop is in my opinion a minor problem compared to a paper Episcopal Bishop John Spong published about 20 years ago that the resurrection never happened and Spong was never censored for this writing. The resurrection IS THE CORNERSTONE of the Catholic and Protestant faiths and as St. Paul writes, “if Christ is not raised, our faith is in vain.” Bottom line, evil has found its way into the Episcopal Church and the membership is in denial.
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martininthefiel
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Shelby Spong, as Bishop Pike before him, is widely criticized criticised even among liberals within TEC. He in no way reflects the mainstream. Most clergy I know see him as an embarrassment. However, I do see him as having value in that he opened-up discussion, and served as a counter-point for apologist. I have no doubt that the vast majority of the clergy of TEC believe in the Creedal basics of Christianity.
However, I also believe that those basics tenets have been distorted by modernity, and an impulse by many within TEC to appear ‘open minded’ in the face of modernity’s assault on Christianity. I am reminded of a saying I heard long ago, “I can be so open minded that all my brains fall out,” and another, “If you don’t stand for something, you can fall for anything.”
Many mainstream Protestants are, rightly, appalled by the shocking intolerance of fundamentalists. In an attempt to demonstrate TEC’s rejection of what often amounts to truly hateful pronouncements by some Protestant denominations, many in TEC over-reacted, and made extreme pronouncements of their own. This was especially true on sexuality.
The college campuses of the past 50-60 years have been quite hostile to religious views in general. Most of the current leadership of the church came of age in the 1960’s and '70’s and reflect the anti-religious ethos of the time.
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