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GKC
Guest
If you mean the Episcopal Church has a problem, yes, the statistics show that it does. Among many other such problems, membership is one.
It’s not my problem.
GKC
posterus traditus Anglicanus, Anglicanus-Catholicus
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It’s not my problem.
GKC
posterus traditus Anglicanus, Anglicanus-Catholicus
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exnihilo
Guest
That might be so, but I wouldn’t assume it without some evidence. In my experience there are many Unitarians hiding out as clergy in the Mainline Protestant denominations. In my experience an obsession with Social Justice to the exclusion of all other things is a strong indicator of Unitarianism. Statements from the Presiding Bishop would seem to be at odds with the very foundation of Christianity. The Episcopal stance on sexuality and marriage is a complete and utter rejection of the most basic elements of not just Christianity but God’s will going back to the creation of man.
These are not extreme pronouncements but a complete rejection of God’s teaching going back to the beginning. This is a foundational error. I dont know what exactly you mean by ‘shocking intolerance’ of fundamentalists. God Himself is intolerant of sin. But of course God also has compassion and mercy. The fundamentalists might be lacking in compassion and mercy and that is itself sinful. But intolerance is not necessarily wrong. Even if the fundamentalists are wrong the answer is not to react but to act wisely and appropriately.
I do agree that the problem is in part due or goes along with the thoughts of the 60s and 70s. It is not a problem unique to TEC or one that Catholics escape. But if there is not a reversal, and soon, then TEC will wither away. If one were to listen long enough to TEC they would learn there is really no reason they need to be a member of that or any church.
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martininthefiel
Guest
I am not just talking about sexuality here. Some fundamentalist have a terrible history on matters of race, etc. The list of issues, including hateful statements about the Catholic Church, would be too long to fully enumerate.
Disapproving of homosexual acts is one thing. Expressing outright hatred of homosexuals is quite another, and some churches do just that.
I agree that some members of TEC are essentially Unitarian, but I don’t think this reflects the majority view. I think American Protestantism in general never quite gets the Trinity right, but that is the subject of another discussion.
I became a Catholic for a reason–so I am not trying here to be an Anglican apologist, but I do believe the vast majority of Episcopalians fall within a Trinitarian belief system.
The irony in Anglo-Catholicism is that a disproportionate number of gay men prefer a ‘High Church’ worship style. Not all parishes that consider themselves ‘Anglo-Catholic’ oppose either women’s ordination or same-sex unions, and the largest monastic order within the Anglican Communion (SSJE) is in favor of both. When I lived in Cambridge, Massachusettes, women priests were often permitted to celebrate Mass in the Monastery. (The former Father Superior of the Cambridge house is the current Bishop of Massachusettes.)
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
How ironic on multiple counts, as monastic communities were established in large part to provide a support system for the monastic to help them remain faithful to their vows, including the vow of chastity.
The rector was no doubt rewarded with the bishopric for having pierced even the nature of monastic life.
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martininthefiel
Guest
One of the other trends in TEC that I find disturbing is the movement away from Confirmation as a necessary Sacrament. I was once told by a priest, who I respected, that, “Confirmation is a liturgy in search of a theology.” I was flabbergasted by this statement.
In some places, there has been a movement toward something called, ‘Rite-13’, which is a Christian version of a Bar or Bat Mitzvah. I think it completely inappropriate for us to hijack Jewish custom, especially when we have perfectly good ones of our own. Not to mention the fact that Confirmation is a Sacrament.
In some places, there has been a movement toward something called, ‘Rite-13’, which is a Christian version of a Bar or Bat Mitzvah. I think it completely inappropriate for us to hijack Jewish custom, especially when we have perfectly good ones of our own. Not to mention the fact that Confirmation is a Sacrament.
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Indiana_Jones
Guest
Oh wow. I ran into that too at one TEC parish (which oddly enough ended up joining the AMiA, but still didn’t like Confirmation). Seems like there’s a lot of confusion about why Confirmation is practiced when one can receive Communion without it. Now the last TEC parish where I worshiped was very serious about both Confirmation and the preceding catechesis. Traditional parishes like that one are pretty solid on the theology behind it, but I guess one never knows what to expect from parish to parish. I believe that an earlier poster described Anglicans as a “motley crew,” and that definitely applies here.
I can’t imagine having some kind of imitation Bar Mitzvah in place of a Sacrament, though. In my opinion, that’s disrespectful to both Judaism and Christianity.
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
Strange you should say that. I admit to this day I do not fully understand the origin of the current practices regarding the sacrament of Confirmation in the Roman Rite (as I was raised in the Byzantine Rite), most especially the age at which it is administered. As a young person with both Roman Catholic and Jewish friends it did strike me as coincidental that both Confirmation and Bar / Bat Mitzvah occurred at roughly the same age. As I was already Chrismated (with Baptism, as was the practice at the time in Eastern Catholic churches in the U.S.), not being part of preparation for something at that age, like my friends and RC cousins, left an impression on me. It always seemed to me as if the age at which Confirmation was rendered was borrowed custom, as a consequence of my experience with my wider circle of friends and family.
Not to derail, but can anyone provide a quick RC perspective?
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iloveangels
Guest
It looks like the only thing that Episcopalians believe in is that it’s good to call “fundamentalists” names. I wonder what you classify as a “fundamentalist.” I have a feeling that you mean far more people than it sounds like you mean. IE anyone to the right of you which includes most everyone alive except you and a few cronies. Perhaps that’s why the Episcopalian church is so very tiny. [That and the lawsuits. Nobody likes lawsuits except lawyers.]
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cmodrmac
Guest
I am amazed by the nasty tone of some responses-no it was not off Google-the term via media was coined by Queen Elizabeth Tudor-I could point out that 1 of every 10 Americans are ex Roman Catholics & if not for Latin immigration the RC Church numbers would be decreasing-it means that all over organized Religion is declining-the Byzantine Catholic Churches are by and large ethnic enclaves as are the Orthodox-
Here in Florida the Baptist Church is the largest and still growing in our area at least
The “Body of Christ” is the community of all believers and Anglican orders are valid-One must get over the fact that just because the Magisterium of the Catholic Church says so does not mean it is so
The denomination is small and aging all true
We all think Bishop Pike and Sponge was and is a little “out there”
Here in Florida the Baptist Church is the largest and still growing in our area at least
The “Body of Christ” is the community of all believers and Anglican orders are valid-One must get over the fact that just because the Magisterium of the Catholic Church says so does not mean it is so
The denomination is small and aging all true
We all think Bishop Pike and Sponge was and is a little “out there”
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iloveangels
Guest
It looks like the only thing that Episcopalians believe in is that it’s good to call “fundamentalists” names. I wonder what you classify as a “fundamentalist.” I have a feeling that you mean far more people than it sounds like you mean. IE anyone to the right of you which includes most everyone alive except you and a few cronies. Perhaps that’s why the Episcopalian church is so very tiny. [That and the lawsuits. Nobody likes lawsuits except lawyers.]
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iloveangels
Guest
You have confusion over confirmation because you’ve never been to the lions or hung on Tyburn Tree. Very few Anglicans have ever sat in Chinese prison for decades or died in Siberia. You have not been murdered in Auschwitz by vivisection, and suffered death at the hands of Muslims in Spain. That’s why you have trouble with the sacrament of Confirmation. Your bishop doesn’t know how to slap you and you wouldn’t know how to take it.Oh wow. I ran into that too at one TEC parish (which oddly enough ended up joining the AMiA, but still didn’t like Confirmation). Seems like there’s a lot of confusion about why Confirmation is practiced when one can receive Communion without it. Now the last TEC parish where I worshiped was very serious about both Confirmation and the preceding catechesis. Traditional parishes like that one are pretty solid on the theology behind it, but I guess one never knows what to expect from parish to parish. I believe that an earlier poster described Anglicans as a “motley crew,” and that definitely applies here.
I can’t imagine having some kind of imitation Bar Mitzvah in place of a Sacrament, though. In my opinion, that’s disrespectful to both Judaism and Christianity.
When the Episcopalian church decides to grow some nobs and stand up for something and takes it on the chin for that something, then you’ll know what Confirmation is.
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GKC
Guest
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Della
Guest
And I think you are confused as to what he’s saying here. He’s not saying confirmation is not necessary or that it is a copy of other faiths’ “rite of passage” rituals. He’s merely describing a parish that did hold to those views. So you may want to cool your jets just a bit.
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iloveangels
Guest
Not talking about Anglicans; talking about Episcopalians. Episcopalians, not surprisingly, are having more problems than Anglicans.
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
… and it is no wonder they both have problems with Catholics!
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iloveangels
Guest
Nevertheless, the problems that each of them are having are different in quantity, if not in kind. The demographics of the UK and the US are quite different.
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Indiana_Jones
Guest
Just to keep the record straight, I left TEC in 2010 and am in RCIA.
Just sharing some thoughts because I was Anglican for nearly 10 years and the topics still interest me 
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iloveangels
Guest
Jharek,
That’s why I was speaking only of Episcopalians and only in the United States. American Episcopalians have a heritage of being pretty well set in the secular culture here. They tend to say pretty much what the larger culture says.
For instance, right now, there are a large number of religious organizations protesting a ruling by the Department of Health and Human Services that’s a blatant power grab on religious freedom. Do the various Episcopal church bodies in the US have a statement protesting this grab on religious freedom? I haven’t seen one. The Orthodox Christians have one; the Orthodox Jews have one; the Evangelical Christians have one. We have many. Over 90% of our bishops have come out opposed to this thing. Letters were read in pulpits across the country this last week. The Army tried to prevent the letter from the Archbishop of Military Services from being read in the pulpit last week and failed. The Army backed down and apologized. Universities, religious orders and groups of laypeople are protesting. There are also lawsuits now, by EWTN among others.
If we are forced to practice “conscientious objection,” it will cost us plenty but we will survive it and we will learn plenty too. The is an issue of religious freedom. The compliance date is August 1st. Stay tuned.
That’s why I was speaking only of Episcopalians and only in the United States. American Episcopalians have a heritage of being pretty well set in the secular culture here. They tend to say pretty much what the larger culture says.
For instance, right now, there are a large number of religious organizations protesting a ruling by the Department of Health and Human Services that’s a blatant power grab on religious freedom. Do the various Episcopal church bodies in the US have a statement protesting this grab on religious freedom? I haven’t seen one. The Orthodox Christians have one; the Orthodox Jews have one; the Evangelical Christians have one. We have many. Over 90% of our bishops have come out opposed to this thing. Letters were read in pulpits across the country this last week. The Army tried to prevent the letter from the Archbishop of Military Services from being read in the pulpit last week and failed. The Army backed down and apologized. Universities, religious orders and groups of laypeople are protesting. There are also lawsuits now, by EWTN among others.
If we are forced to practice “conscientious objection,” it will cost us plenty but we will survive it and we will learn plenty too. The is an issue of religious freedom. The compliance date is August 1st. Stay tuned.
M
MichaelTDoyle
Guest
/off topic
If Anna’s only issue is with the authority of the Pope, I wish we could open a thread for her on that topic where she could ask and discuss all those issues. Would you be willing?
I think what we’re missing is that the Beloved has asked us to be Catholic. He chose Peter and instituted a real and specific church. He wants her to be Catholic like he wants all of us to be.
Somehow it is sad she is so close to uniting her heart with His, worshipping and receiving Him at mass.
I just wish we could have an apologetic discussion like that.
If Anna’s only issue is with the authority of the Pope, I wish we could open a thread for her on that topic where she could ask and discuss all those issues. Would you be willing?
I think what we’re missing is that the Beloved has asked us to be Catholic. He chose Peter and instituted a real and specific church. He wants her to be Catholic like he wants all of us to be.
Somehow it is sad she is so close to uniting her heart with His, worshipping and receiving Him at mass.
I just wish we could have an apologetic discussion like that.
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iloveangels
Guest
I think that’s really a good idea, since the topic name “The Episcopal Church: What happened?” doesn’t really encompass that. This thread topic name seems actually to be more about demographics, views, events and the like, due to its nature and wording.
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