Episcopal Church: What happened?

[iloveangels]

Just to keep the record straight, I left TEC in 2010 and am in RCIA. Just sharing some thoughts because I was Anglican for nearly 10 years and the topics still interest me

Indiana Jones,
Welcome. You are becoming Catholic at an interesting and exciting time. I hope you grow to love it as much as I do. I’m also a convert. I’ve been Catholic 27 years this spring.

 

[martininthefiel]

How ironic on multiple counts, as monastic communities were established in large part to provide a support system for the monastic to help them remain faithful to their vows, including the vow of chastity.

The rector was no doubt rewarded with the bishopric for having pierced even the nature of monastic life.

The order, itself, requires the brothers remain celibate. Non-celibate monks would be extremely problematic. Their vows are not at issue. I was merely stating that SSJE is not opposed to either same-sex unions, or women’s ordination in the Church at-large, and that many times guest Celebrants at morning Mass are female.

The order, sometimes called the Cowley Fathers owing to the fact they were founded at Cowley, England, is a prolific publisher of Christian writing, some of it quite orthodox. I’ve have gone on retreat there several times. Except for the occasional heterodox homily, i found the experience very spiritually fulfilling. Their practices include Veneration of the Blessed Sacrament, and recitation of the Angelus.

 

[Contarini]

Not talking about Anglicans; talking about Episcopalians. Episcopalians, not surprisingly, are having more problems than Anglicans.

Episcopalians are Anglicans. We are the U.S. branch of the Anglican Communion (though we do have a presence in some other countries as well).

Americans in general have not experienced much persecution, so naturally the American branch of Anglicanism has not experienced much persecution.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

70% of Episcopalians are converts with the largest percentage coming from the Roman Catholic Church

It is extremely inappropriate to refer to baptized Christians who join the Episcopal Church as “converts.” Our Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters use this language appropriately, because they identify their respective Communions with the Catholic Church. We do not. We claim to be part of the Catholic Church. One converts to Christ and His Body, not to Anglicanism. (Indeed, I’m unhappy with “convert” as an intransitive active verb anyway–God converts people.)

I know this is nit-picking, but it’s an important semantic point.,

the schism of the American Anglicans

Again, sorry for the pedantry, but we are American Anglicans too.

Our catholic and Protestant brother Churches should pray for us -so that some compromise will occur before the Church breaks up further

I certainly agree there!

Edwin

 

[martininthefiel]

I still maintain deep affection for TEC. I do not desire their demise, and I am not happy about the various “Continuing Anglican” groups, which only serve to further the divisions. Episcopalians coming home to Rome is one thing. Parishes leaving to join other Anglican diocese is quite another.

Note that my nickname is that of an Anglican church in London.

I have often said that my reception into the Catholic Church was not a ‘conversion’ in the full sense of the word. Our primary Vocation as Christians is Baptism, and I became a Member of the Body of Christ with the words, “I Baptize you in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

 

[Contarini]

One of the other trends in TEC that I find disturbing is the movement away from Confirmation as a necessary Sacrament. I was once told by a priest, who I respected, that, “Confirmation is a liturgy in search of a theology.” I was flabbergasted by this statement.

But isn’t is a correct statement? What is your reason for disagreeing with it?

Historically, isn’t it true that confirmation was originally “chrismation” (as in the continuing Eastern practice)–part of the sacrament of baptism? Isn’t it true that the separation of confirmation from baptism happened for pragmatic reasons (difficulty of the bishop attending every baptism) rather than theological ones (except of course for the theologically based insistence on the role of the bishop in chrismation/confirmation)?

This is the standard narrative told by liturgical scholars. Do you have some reason to believe that it’s wrong?

Similarly, you criticize the omission of the Filioque. Can you defend its insertion into the Creed at Rome in the eleventh century, after an earlier Pope had very specifically refused to insert it?

It seems to me that a theologically serious Anglo-Catholicism is rooted in the consensus of the first millennium, and therefore ought to be very friendly to these two changes, which return Anglicanism to a position of greater faithfulness to that consensus.

Edwin

 

[exnihilo]

I am not just talking about sexuality here. Some fundamentalist have a terrible history on matters of race, etc. The list of issues, including hateful statements about the Catholic Church, would be too long to fully enumerate.

Regarding the first all churches of any age have by today’s standards a terrible history on matters of race. Regarding the second that is certainly true.

Disapproving of homosexual acts is one thing. Expressing outright hatred of homosexuals is quite another, and some churches do just that.

If we are talking history then sodomites have been executed in the past. One must be careful to not forget that they should show charity to all men. At the same time I would venture to say I might be greeted with the same kind of hate if I told a racial joke to some of those who are accepting of homosexuality. I’ve found that almost everyone has hate for something.

I agree that some members of TEC are essentially Unitarian, but I don’t think this reflects the majority view.

I wonder if it is not more common in clergy than the laity. My impression at least in the South in Mainline Protestantism is that the clergy is far more ‘liberal’ than the laity. The leadership may be of a different mind than the average parishioner.

 

[Publisher]

Regarding the first all churches of any age have by today’s standards a terrible history on matters of race. Regarding the second that is certainly true.

If we are talking history then sodomites have been executed in the past. One must be careful to not forget that they should show charity to all men. At the same time I would venture to say I might be greeted with the same kind of hate if I told a racial joke to some of those who are accepting of homosexuality. I’ve found that almost everyone has hate for something.

I wonder if it is not more common in clergy than the laity. My impression at least in the South in Mainline Protestantism is that the clergy is far more ‘liberal’ than the laity. The leadership may be of a different mind than the average parishioner.

I believe this is very true…when I was in first year seminary it was said that all our previous beliefs would be “torn down” and some of us would be very “distrubed” at the history of doctrinal development and church history. Textual criticism of the Bible really set some of the first year seminarians on end…then "The next two years would be a time to “build one up in the faith”.

I have found many…if not most…“Mainline” religious bodies have a well educated clergy that don’t necessarily teach their congregations what they learned in seminary the first year…I mean…many of them lost faith that first year and didn’t wait around for the “building up” part of their education.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

when I was in first year seminary it was said that all our previous beliefs would be “torn down” and some of us would be very “distrubed” at the history of doctrinal development and church history.

Quaker seminary? or did you leave another denominational seminary and become a Quaker?

 

[Publisher]

Quaker seminary? or did you leave another denominational seminary and become a Quaker?

I was convinced a Friend at 19 years of age. I entered Northern California Bible Seminary when I was 26…it was “non-denominational” with a charismatic “flavor”. That was many many years ago…I don’t even know if it’s still operating…after my wife and child died I lost faith for a while…I quit my studies…I never finished.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I was convinced a Friend at 19 years of age. I entered Northern California Bible Seminary when I was 26…it was “non-denominational” with a charismatic “flavor”. That was many many years ago.

Thank you for sharing (hope I wasn’t being too forward in asking). It’s helpful to know, as it will help me at least better understand your perspective. While not a Quaker, I was fortunate enough to go to university in Philadelphia (yes, specifically to that one that was founded by a rather well-known Quaker), so being the curious guy I am, I took an interest and tried to gain an appreciation for Quaker ways and thinking during my years of study there.

 

[Publisher]

Thank you for sharing (hope I wasn’t being too forward in asking). It’s helpful to know, as it will help me at least better understand your perspective. While not a Quaker, I was fortunate enough to go to university in Philadelphia (yes, specifically to that one that was founded by a rather well-known Quaker), so being the curious guy I am, I took an interest and tried to gain an appreciation for Quaker ways and thinking during my years of study there.

I wanted to go to Friends University at one time…ended up at George Fox in Oregon…NCS was fairly inexpensive for a graduate school…even 30 years ago education was expensive considering wages given to assistant pastors in a small Mennonite Brethren church I served in.

I’ve always wanted to go to Pennsylvania and take the Friend’s tour…never made it.

 

[Protector]

pablope;8896323] Thanks for the info…do not have the latest news. Is Dr. John going to sue for discrimination? One of the articles said he was considering that avenue.

In a two-car race one car wins, the other car loses. Dr.John lost - it’s as simple as that. The trouble is pablope we live in such a litigious society.

Protector.

 

[iloveangels]

Hey look what I found! Thank you and God bless you all, no matter what Episcopalian group you belong to. I’m proud of you. This is excellent.

virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=15558#.TzS288iN-So

 

[liturgyluver]

In a two-car race one car wins, the other car loses. Dr.John lost - it’s as simple as that. The trouble is pablope we live in such a litigious society.

Protector.

Whilst I think the CofE was within its rights to take account of sexuality in its appointments, in everyday life it’s not always as simple as that. Unfortunately some people are prejudiced and so will discriminate on grounds of race, gender or sexuality rather than looking at the who best meets the criteria for the job.

 

[GKC]

Hey look what I found! Thank you and God bless you all, no matter what Episcopalian group you belong to. I’m proud of you. This is excellent.

virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=15558#.TzS288iN-So

Anglican group.

GKC

 

[iloveangels]

Sorry GKC, I don’t know the right terminology for the different associations, groups and congregations in the Episcopalian setting anymore. It’s gotten very confusing for me, since I’m not an Episcopalian. There are a lot of acronyms now, as you know. ACNA, TEC, FIF, etc. Virtue Online looks like a news agency run by someone in the Episcopal Church, is that right? It’s a very nice site.

Looking at the link, the statement is by an archbishop in ACNA. Which is Anglican Church in North America, correct me if I’m wrong. Is this the one allied with the African congregations?

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hey look what I found! Thank you and God bless you all, no matter what Episcopalian group you belong to. I’m proud of you. This is excellent.

virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=15558#.TzS288iN-So

iloveangels

God bless you, iloveangels.
Anna

 

[GKC]

Sorry GKC, I don’t know the right terminology for the different associations, groups and congregations in the Episcopalian setting anymore. It’s gotten very confusing for me, since I’m not an Episcopalian. There are a lot of acronyms now, as you know. ACNA, TEC, FIF, etc. Virtue Online looks like a news agency run by someone in the Episcopal Church, is that right? It’s a very nice site.

Looking at the link, the statement is by an archbishop in ACNA. Which is Anglican Church in North America, correct me if I’m wrong. Is this the one allied with the African congregations?

Anglicanism is massively confusing, in the best of times. Right now, I can’t keep up with it all, either.

AFAIK, David Virtue, who runs Virtueonline, is a member of TEC, though that site is certainly not an official TEC one. He, and the general tone of the site, trend toward the more reformed/evangelical side of Anglicanism. But they cover a lot of stuff and I regularly check them out.

ACNA is Anglican Church in North America, yes. To add to the confusion, it’s the 2nd Church to be so named, the first arising from the St. Louis Affirmation in 1977. That was the first Continuing Anglican Church, which rapidly broke up into a couple of other Continuing Anglican Churches. The current ACNA is not directly affiliated with African Anglican Primates, that would be the CANA and the AMIA, though these two groups do have some contact with ACNA. While they are not in the official Anglican Communion, ACNA is in communion (not under) several African Anglican Provinces. ACNA is centered around the four dioceses that broke from the Episcopal Church, plus other more or less orthodox Anglican groups and parishes that have joined, and has no need for alternate episcopal oversight.

So, in brief, an Episcopalian is an Anglican. Anglican is a broader concept than just the Episcopal Church in America. Think of “Anglican” as the genus and “Episcopal” as the species.

GKC

 

[Cavaradossi]

I am amazed by the nasty tone of some responses-no it was not off Google-the term via media was coined by Queen Elizabeth Tudor-I could point out that 1 of every 10 Americans are ex Roman Catholics & if not for Latin immigration the RC Church numbers would be decreasing-it means that all over organized Religion is declining-the Byzantine Catholic Churches are by and large ethnic enclaves as are the Orthodox-

Here in Florida the Baptist Church is the largest and still growing in our area at least

The “Body of Christ” is the community of all believers and Anglican orders are valid-One must get over the fact that just because the Magisterium of the Catholic Church says so does not mean it is so

The denomination is small and aging all true

We all think Bishop Pike and Sponge was and is a little “out there”

The Antiochian Orthodox Church in America and the OCA are far from ethnic enclaves. You have no idea what you are talking about.