Episcopal Church Won't Stop Supporting Gay Marriage Despite Anglican Suspension, Says Bishop

[theropod]

Wow, I have to step in here. There is almost 100% chance of a formal split if the suspension against TEC is not lifted. That means up to 75% of Anglicans will leave the “Anglican Communion”.

Polygamy in Africa is only allowed for converts who already had multiple wives before their conversion. Once converted, they are not allowed more wives. That is the clear Biblical example. What would you want them to do, make them divorce? No clergy, to my knowledge, have polygamous marriages.

 

[Little_Sheep]

Marriage was a defined heterosexual institution long before any of the governments we have. It’s not a “church initiative” like going to services on Sunday, it was there before the churches, and the churches, and atheists, and others, upheld it. It’s not like a “religious” type preference, as compared to a “secular” alternative. Governments, and the TEC, do not have the authority to invent something else, and call it “marriage”.

If the government legalized child abuse next week, and the Catholic Church opposed it, would you say opposing child abuse is just a “religious” option, compared to an equally valid, sanctioned “secular” option, that it is ok to abuse children?

Oh, commenter, I so often enjoy your comments, but this…sigh. No one is going to secularly sanction child abuse. It’s a terrible comparison because it lacks honest logic. I know you know this and that you could find a more alluring straw man if you tried.

 

[commenter]

I may well be wrong, of course. But, if I had to put money on it, I’d still say that the broader Anglican communion will **open its eyes **to TEC’s stance on homosexuality. I think that most other Christian denominations will come around to our way of seeing this issue as well. It won’t happen overnight, of course, but it also won’t take centuries to happen.

I would definitely not use the phrase you use, which I bolded, to describe the process by which I think the broader Anglican Communion will follow the path of the TEC. It is a loss of sight. But yes, most of it will follow the TEC on this, and other things. As will most other denominations.

 

[Little_Sheep]

I would definitely not use the phrase you use, which I bolded, to describe the process by which I think the broader Anglican Communion will follow the path of the TEC. It is a loss of sight. But yes, most of it will follow the TEC on this, and other things. As will most other denominations.

I appreciate your “loss of sight” reference.

May a holy Lent bring greater sight to us both (and all)!

 

[Padres1969]

Marriage was a defined heterosexual institution long before any of the governments we have. It’s not a “church initiative” like going to services on Sunday, it was there before the churches, and the churches, and atheists, and others, upheld it. It’s not like a “religious” type preference, as compared to a “secular” alternative. Governments, and the TEC, do not have the authority to invent something else, and call it “marriage”.

If the government legalized child abuse next week, and the Catholic Church opposed it, would you say opposing child abuse is just a “religious” option, compared to an equally valid, sanctioned “secular” option, that it is ok to abuse children?

Your Straw Man is showing in bold… :nope:

With regard to your first paragraph, marriage was defined as an institution long before Christianity existed as you say, and in many parts of the world that included same sex unions from Mesopotamia to Greece, from China to Rome, not just heterosexual ones .

Almost universally until recently various Christian Churches have chosen to deny those same rights to same sex couples as have more recent governments with regard to secular marriage (and yes there is a secular marriage that accompanies any religious marriage as indeed many married people have no religious aspect to their marriage including your a fore mentioned atheists). However secular governments are changing their opinion on the matter in line with those of old, and some Christian churches have recognized as well that their previous reading of the issue may have been incorrect and that marriage can actually be between same sex partners who are committed to one another. The RCC is not one of them obviously, and that’s fine. I don’t think anyone is asking the RCC to change it’s view on it’s version of the religious component of marriage. Indeed you should feel happy and secure in that knowledge given your views.

 

[Little_Sheep]

Your Straw Man is showing in bold… :nope:

With regard to your first paragraph, marriage was defined as an institution long before Christianity existed as you say, and in many parts of the world that included same sex unions from Mesopotamia to Greece, from China to Rome, not just heterosexual ones .

Almost universally until recently various Christian Churches have chosen to deny those same rights to same sex couples as have more recent governments with regard to secular marriage (and yes there is a secular marriage that accompanies any religious marriage as indeed many married people have no religious aspect to their marriage including your a fore mentioned atheists). However secular governments are changing their opinion on the matter in line with those of old, and some Christian churches have recognized as well that their previous reading of the issue may have been incorrect and that marriage can actually be between same sex partners who are committed to one another. The RCC is not one of them obviously, and that’s fine. I don’t think anyone is asking the RCC to change it’s view on it’s version of the religious component of marriage.

Amen.

 

[ChristianDude]

I was hoping that maybe the Episcopal Church would turn around and come back to a more orthodox viewpoint on such issues. Perhaps there’s a point of no return for this church, though.

 

[commenter]

Oh, commenter, I so often enjoy your comments, but this…sigh. No one is going to secularly sanction child abuse. It’s a terrible comparison because it lacks honest logic. I know you know this and that you could find a more alluring straw man if you tried.

Think how abortion was regarded by secular society, and TEC, a few decades ago. Do you think other changes are out of the question in coming decades?

 

[Little_Sheep]

I was hoping that maybe the Episcopal Church would turn around and come back to a more orthodox viewpoint on such issues. Perhaps there’s a point of no return for this church, though.

Welcome, ChristianDude. I feel certain you are not alone in your sentiments. Surely, this issue is no “point of no return” for any Christian! Let us love Christ and each other and spread that love to all of our brethren throughout the world!

 

[Little_Sheep]

Think how abortion was regarded by secular society, and TEC, a few decades ago. Do you think other changes are out of the question in coming decades?

Our church has grown in many ways. Change does not bother me and I suspect there will be more change for all Christian churches.

My grandmother was excommunicated from the Episcopal Church back in the day for divorcing a violent alcoholic. And that’s nonsense. Later, she mourned the advent of women priests. That’s also nonsense. At the end, she passed through the veil in peace and wisdom.

We heed the parable of the Leaven as used to describe the Kingdom of God. I presented this parable to the 3-6 year-olds in my atrium last week. TEC and all Christians will continue to grow in the fullness of the Kingdom of Heaven.

It does not serve any of us to ignore the things we continue to learn about ourselves and our God. (see Galileo…and please don’t try to tell me that I don’t understand that event).

Abortion is another straw man - one with lots of tedious political tentacles.

And none of this has anything to do with the nonsensical statement that we will one day condone child abuse. IMHO.

 

[ChristianDude]

Welcome, ChristianDude. I feel certain you are not alone in your sentiments. Surely, this issue is no “point of no return” for any Christian! Let us love Christ and each other and spread that love to all of our brethren throughout the world!

Sorry, I may have misspoke (uh, “mis-typed”?). What I meant to insinuate was that gay marriage is an issue that the Episcopal Church simply is not going to change on.

 

[commenter]

).
Abortion is another straw man - one with lots of** tedious** political tentacles.

And none of this has anything to do with the nonsensical statement that we will one day condone child abuse. IMHO.

Sometimes an abortion is “unsuccessful” and an unwanted child is born. A few years ago a state Legislator in Illinois introduced legislation that would protect the doctor from any liability for what happened to that child in the doctor’s office during or after the birth.

Do you think that legislator would have been elevated to higher office if he did that a couple generations ago? Still think these topics are unrelated, or “tedious”?

 

[Little_Sheep]

Sorry, I may have misspoke (uh, “mis-typed”?). What I meant to insinuate was that gay marriage is an issue that the Episcopal Church simply is not going to change on.

I agree!

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Sorry, I may have misspoke (uh, “mis-typed”?). What I meant to insinuate was that gay marriage is an issue that the Episcopal Church simply is not going to change on.

Sorry that I am coming into this conversation so late, but yes, I agree that the Episcopal Church is not going to change even an iota on this one. And most of the non-Asian/African churches/Provinces will be standing with us in a matter of a few years. Canada, Australia, NZ, South Africa, Scotland, Wales, England, etc.

 

[Little_Sheep]

Sorry that I am coming into this conversation so late, but yes, I agree that the Episcopal Church is not going to change even an iota on this one. And most of the non-Asian/African churches/Provinces will be standing with us in a matter of a few years. Canada, Australia, NZ, South Africa, Scotland, Wales, England, etc.

Amen.

 

[Brendan]

I don’t have any links at my fingertips, but the generally accepted number from internet research on my part (for Africans of all Christian faiths) and from talking to people more knowledgeable of this subject is this: 25% of the African congregations are involved in plural marriages. In the Anglican tradition, such families are admonished to NOT take any new wives after they have converted. But still - there they remain in full force. Polygamous marriage is socially and culturally accepted (even revered) by Afrikans of all stripes…

I can speak from personal experience, at least on the Catholic side. I regularly do mission work in Tanzania. The area that I work in still has a substantial population of adherents to trational African religion. Polygamy is considered to be a barrier to the Church accepting a conversion.

A polygamous man is required to accept the first wife as his only wife. All other subsequent ‘wives’ are to be treated as honored sisters. The man is still required to provide for them, as he would any other member of his family. If that cannot be accepted, the man is not accepted as a catechumen.

There are no provisions for the man returning to the other ‘wives’ in any relationship other than as a sister. One failing to adhere to the Church’s teachings is subjected to admonishment by his fellow parishioners.

As such, most men in this state do not seek conversion.

I had a long conversation with the local Catholic bishop on that topic. I wondered why there were followers of the pagan religions in the 21st Century. The bishop kind of laughed. He explained that men are reluctant to convert to Islam ( also quite prevelant in Tanzania) because that would mean that they have to give up alcohol. And they are reluctant to convert to Christianity, because it would mean that they must be monogamous (and, in the case of Catholicism, cannot even divorce)

. There is no tradition of Agnosticism or Atheism in Tanzania, such people are looked upon with suspicion. So they remain in the pagan religions, simply for pragmatic reasons

The solution is to start with the children. If the Church has the better schools, the parents sent their children there. The pagan religionists generally have no issue with their children becoming Catholic (unlike the Muslims). So the Church is expanding by teaching the youth about the value of true marriage.

That is the Catholic view, but I have seen NO indication that the Anglicans or other Protestants have any more toleration for polygamy than the Catholic Church.

Yes, polygamy is part of the traditional African religions, and of local Islam, but it is something that I have seen all the Christian Churches rejecting, both at the leadership levels, and by those in the pews.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Yes, polygamy is part of the traditional African religions, and of local Islam, but it is something that I have seen all the Christian Churches rejecting, both at the leadership levels, and by those in the pews.

This is all very good to learn, Brendan. I wonder, though, if people sometimes look the other way. It is preached and taught that having more than one wife is unacceptable, yes, but in all reality, sex usually wins out in the end.(That’s actually true in Western culture too.) I feel bad for the women in the family though; if the expectation was that they were to be a wife and have children, why would they accept anything different?

 

[theropod]

That is the Catholic view, but I have seen NO indication that the Anglicans or other Protestants have any more toleration for polygamy than the Catholic Church.

Yes, polygamy is part of the traditional African religions, and of local Islam, but it is something that I have seen all the Christian Churches rejecting, both at the leadership levels, and by those in the pews.

Well, they don’t of course. It’s a pretty common smear by US Episcopalians to say that the Africans support polygamy in an attempt to deny them the moral high ground in the rejection of homosexual marriage.

 

[Little_Sheep]

I can speak from personal experience, at least on the Catholic side. I regularly do mission work in Tanzania. The area that I work in still has a substantial population of adherents to trational African religion. Polygamy is considered to be a barrier to the Church accepting a conversion.

A polygamous man is required to accept the first wife as his only wife. All other subsequent ‘wives’ are to be treated as honored sisters. The man is still required to provide for them, as he would any other member of his family. If that cannot be accepted, the man is not accepted as a catechumen.

There are no provisions for the man returning to the other ‘wives’ in any relationship other than as a sister. One failing to adhere to the Church’s teachings is subjected to admonishment by his fellow parishioners.

As such, most men in this state do not seek conversion.

I had a long conversation with the local Catholic bishop on that topic. I wondered why there were followers of the pagan religions in the 21st Century. The bishop kind of laughed. He explained that men are reluctant to convert to Islam ( also quite prevelant in Tanzania) because that would mean that they have to give up alcohol. And they are reluctant to convert to Christianity, because it would mean that they must be monogamous (and, in the case of Catholicism, cannot even divorce)

. There is no tradition of Agnosticism or Atheism in Tanzania, such people are looked upon with suspicion. So they remain in the pagan religions, simply for pragmatic reasons

The solution is to start with the children. If the Church has the better schools, the parents sent their children there. The pagan religionists generally have no issue with their children becoming Catholic (unlike the Muslims). So the Church is expanding by teaching the youth about the value of true marriage.

That is the Catholic view, but I have seen NO indication that the Anglicans or other Protestants have any more toleration for polygamy than the Catholic Church.

Yes, polygamy is part of the traditional African religions, and of local Islam, but it is something that I have seen all the Christian Churches rejecting, both at the leadership levels, and by those in the pews.

Thank you for sharing your beautiful personal experience.

 

[Padres1969]

Well, they don’t of course. It’s a pretty common smear by US Episcopalians to say that the Africans support polygamy in an attempt to deny them the moral high ground in the rejection of homosexual marriage.

Actually a smear I’ve never heard before…