Episcopal Church

[Contarini]

I converted to the Catholic Church from the Episcopal church in my mid-twenties.

The doctrinal confusion of the EC pushed me out the door. As has been pointed out-- they are little more than Unitarian at this point.

It’s not been pointed out. It’s been asserted many times. But anyone can assert anyone. People assert that Catholics are Babylonian pagans, if it comes to that.

There are I believe two Episcopal parishes in the country that do not use the Nicene Creed. I’m not sure even they are “little more than Unitarians,” but the charge could perhaps be reasonably made. They are anomalies, however. Go into an Episcopal church (with these exceptions) and every Sunday and feast day you will hear us confess our faith in the Most Holy Trinity (and, of course, we celebrate the Trinity as a special feast every year). Over and over again in our liturgy we pray in the name of Father, Son, and Spirit. You can of course allege that we secretly deny all that we openly profess. But anyone can say that about anyone.

If language means anything, the claim that Episcopalians are “little more than Unitarians” is one of the most monstrous and nonsensical falsehoods in the sad annals of intra-Christian polemic.

Edwin

 

[GKC]

I would strongly dispute this claim. But of course it all depends on what you mean by “Anglicanism.”

We are as yet still fully in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury. We certainly consider ourselves Anglican. And many of the new groups who call themselves “Anglican” are far less faithful to the Anglican liturgical tradition than we are (this in contrast to GKC’s “Continuers,” who use a Prayer Book much closer to that of Cranmer than ours).

Edwin

One needs a program, when discussing Anglicans.

GKC

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I can see where the Episcopal Churches would be more appealing if they were like the High Church found within Anglicanism, but from what I have seen it is not. I’m not sure if that kind of Church is uncommon in my area or I just haven’t looked hard enough.

Granted, I cannot admit that I have looked very hard at all as I have never considered converting.

but I find the Episcopal Church to possibly be a better fit for me and my present way of thinking.

This statement kind of concerns me, not because you are considering the Episcopal Church (in the end you have to go where you feel the Spirit is leading you because someday you will have to answer for what you believe) but because for me, when I converted to the Catholic Church, I had to completely change my way of thinking from what it was at the time. If I would have gone with my way of thinking I would have never joined the Church and just continued on my unrepentant ways.

I’m not saying that you are unrepentant, but that we should be careful with making choices to conform to our way of thinking at the time, as our way of thinking has a way of constantly changing.

God bless

 

[chris_molter]

There are I believe two Episcopal parishes in the country that do not use the Nicene Creed.

It wasn’t the apostate parishes that bothered me, it was all the parishes, priests and bishops that say the Creed with their fingers crossed (or worse, ‘nuance’ the words into meaninglessness). Those are not anomalies. These are the “powers that be” in TEC. Being in +John Howe’s diocese sheltered me from the goins on in the national church somewhat, but after a while, it became very clear that the ‘orthodox’ had become a minority and those dioceses were quickly becoming isolated pockets (Central Fl, Albany, San Joaquin, Ft Worth, etc).

 

[chris_molter]

One needs a program, when discussing Anglicans.

GKC

I think a flow chart may be of some use.

 

[mikew262]

Another thing is the fact that leaving the Catholic Church will, in effect, cut one off from the sacraments, especially that of the Holy Eucharist. Because the Church does not recognize the validity of Anglican/Episcopalian ordinations, whatever “sacraments” they attempt to confect are not valid, not real.

Keep in mind, while this is the opinion of the Catholic Church (and you), to the Episcopal/Anglican Church they are indeed valid and real.

 

[mikew262]

But perhaps you are overlooking the possibility that God has already led you, and you just don’t like it. Why would you want to base an incredibly important decision (given the role of the Church in Christianity) like what church to join on something as ephemeral and uncertain as your “present way of thinking”?

Maybe both you and the Catholic Church need each other precisely because it isn’t a good fit for your “present way of thinking.”

Caveat: I myself obviously did join the Episcopal Church (from low-church nondenominational Protestantism, but after several years of considering Catholicism). I’m not sure I would do it if I had it to do over again, though. (Not sure does not mean “sure that I wouldn’t.”) And my efforts to persuade my wife to stay Methodist (based on the above arguments) seem to be failing–she’s seriously considering becoming Episcopalian as well.

Edwin

I’m not discounting the fact that what you say may be true. Perhaps “present way of thinking” was a poor choice of words. Perhaps God is trying to point me in another direction and I’m feeling that call. I’m not sure, but I’ll keep praying on it and hopefully God will make his desire more clear.

 

[benedictgal]

Keep in mind, while this is the opinion of the Catholic Church (and you), to the Episcopal/Anglican Church they are indeed valid and real.

They are not valid. In fact, I believe it was one of the popes who declared their ordinations invalid through defect of form. Furthermore, as the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger defined, the Anglican denomination is not a church, but a Protestant ecclesial community, as are the Lutherans, Methodists, et al. The only sister Churches are the Orthodox.

As a Catholic, how can you subscribe to this notion? Have you, in all honesty, fully read what the Church teaches (i.e. the Catechism, the authoritative documents of the Holy See (Second Vatican Council–an not someone’s interpretation of the Spirit of it), the aforementioned Domins Iesus) and even the books of famed converts like the late Avery Cardinal Dulles, John Cardinal Newman and Fr. Richard John Neuhaus, each man having been converted from the Protestant ecclesial community?

We have 2,000 years of authentic spiritual heritage behind us. We were founded and established by no less than Jesus Christ HImself on the rock of St. Peter. Yes, we have had our struggles, but, we have the sure promise and guarantee of Jesus Christ, Himself, that the gates of Hell would never prevail against His Church. We also have the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, something that no one else has. That is also the fulfillment of his pledge, “Lo, I am with you always.”

 

[emeraldcoast]

They are not valid. In fact, I believe it was one of the popes who declared their ordinations invalid through defect of form. Furthermore, as the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger defined, the Anglican denomination is not a church, but a Protestant ecclesial community, as are the Lutherans, Methodists, et al. The only sister Churches are the Orthodox.

As a Catholic, how can you subscribe to this notion? Have you, in all honesty, fully read what the Church teaches (i.e. the Catechism, the authoritative documents of the Holy See (Second Vatican Council–an not someone’s interpretation of the Spirit of it), the aforementioned Domins Iesus) and even the books of famed converts like the late Avery Cardinal Dulles, John Cardinal Newman and Fr. Richard John Neuhaus, each man having been converted from the Protestant ecclesial community?

We have 2,000 years of authentic spiritual heritage behind us. We were founded and established by no less than Jesus Christ HImself on the rock of St. Peter. Yes, we have had our struggles, but, we have the sure promise and guarantee of Jesus Christ, Himself, that the gates of Hell would never prevail against His Church. We also have the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, something that no one else has. That is also the fulfillment of his pledge, “Lo, I am with you always.”

benedictgal,

You are saying all the right and expected things as a Catholic should say. You sure did mention a lot of stuff to read but I don’t see the Bible mentioned.

On the other hand, I must say that YES, our Ordinations are VALID with Jesus Christ Real Presence in our Eucharist. Praise God!

The Church is made up of Jesus’ followers. We are both believers and members of His Church! AMEN!

God Bless!

 

[GKC]

They are not valid. In fact, I believe it was one of the popes who declared their ordinations invalid through defect of form. Furthermore, as the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger defined, the Anglican denomination is not a church, but a Protestant ecclesial community, as are the Lutherans, Methodists, et al. The only sister Churches are the Orthodox.

As a Catholic, how can you subscribe to this notion? Have you, in all honesty, fully read what the Church teaches (i.e. the Catechism, the authoritative documents of the Holy See (Second Vatican Council–an not someone’s interpretation of the Spirit of it), the aforementioned Domins Iesus) and even the books of famed converts like the late Avery Cardinal Dulles, John Cardinal Newman and Fr. Richard John Neuhaus, each man having been converted from the Protestant ecclesial community?

We have 2,000 years of authentic spiritual heritage behind us. We were founded and established by no less than Jesus Christ HImself on the rock of St. Peter. Yes, we have had our struggles, but, we have the sure promise and guarantee of Jesus Christ, Himself, that the gates of Hell would never prevail against His Church. We also have the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, something that no one else has. That is also the fulfillment of his pledge, “Lo, I am with you always.”

It was Apostolicae Curae, issued over the signature of Leo XIII (mainly written by Monsignor Raphael Merry del Val) in 1896, which declared that Anglicans orders were absolutely null and utterly void, for technical reasons related to the Edwardine Ordinal. Though that was not precisely the question that the Papal commission was chartered to answer. Hence, all RCs should affirm that as true.

It will not surprise you that Anglicans don’t necessarily agree with that assertion.

Apostolicae Curae, like Henry VIII. is a hobby of mine.

GKC

 

[benedictgal]

benedictgal,

You are saying all the right and expected things as a Catholic should say. You sure did mention a lot of stuff to read but I don’t see the Bible mentioned.

On the other hand, I must say that YES, our Ordinations are VALID with Jesus Christ Real Presence in our Eucharist. Praise God!

The Church is made up of Jesus’ followers. We are both believers and members of His Church! AMEN!

God Bless!

With all due respect, just from where do you think I got the Petrine ministry from? It is found in St. Matthew’s gospel. I repeat what the Church teaches with regard to Anglican ordinations (and those of other Protestant ecclesial communities): these are invalid. Thus, communion is invalid due to a defect of form.

We are not Sola Scriptura. Remember that the Bible sprang from the Church, not the other way around. The Bible, as we know it, came about during an early Church council. Remember, too, that St. Paul exhorted the early Church to hold fast to the traditions they received from the Apostles.

 

[emeraldcoast]

With all due respect, just from where do you think I got the Petrine ministry from? It is found in St. Matthew’s gospel. I repeat what the Church teaches with regard to Anglican ordinations (and those of other Protestant ecclesial communities): these are invalid. Thus, communion is invalid due to a defect of form.

We are not Sola Scriptura. Remember that the Bible sprang from the Church, not the other way around. The Bible, as we know it, came about during an early Church council. Remember, too, that St. Paul exhorted the early Church to hold fast to the traditions they received from the Apostles.

FYI-- We are not Sola Scripture either… We have Scripture, Tradition and Reason.

benedictgal, you are doing an awesome job with sharing your Catholic faith.

I however will disagree with you again–We have valid Ordinations. I know that you can’t except this because your Pope tells you not to do so. That is fine.

Following your point with Paul–
Which of twelve Apostles, benedictgal, spoke of the Assumption of Mary?

God Bless!

 

[mikew262]

They are not valid. In fact, I believe it was one of the popes who declared their ordinations invalid through defect of form. Furthermore, as the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger defined, the Anglican denomination is not a church, but a Protestant ecclesial community, as are the Lutherans, Methodists, et al. The only sister Churches are the Orthodox.

As a Catholic, how can you subscribe to this notion? Have you, in all honesty, fully read what the Church teaches (i.e. the Catechism, the authoritative documents of the Holy See (Second Vatican Council–an not someone’s interpretation of the Spirit of it), the aforementioned Domins Iesus) and even the books of famed converts like the late Avery Cardinal Dulles, John Cardinal Newman and Fr. Richard John Neuhaus, each man having been converted from the Protestant ecclesial community?

We have 2,000 years of authentic spiritual heritage behind us. We were founded and established by no less than Jesus Christ HImself on the rock of St. Peter. Yes, we have had our struggles, but, we have the sure promise and guarantee of Jesus Christ, Himself, that the gates of Hell would never prevail against His Church. We also have the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, something that no one else has. That is also the fulfillment of his pledge, “Lo, I am with you always.”

As a Catholic, I’m fully aware of the Church’s position on this and other issues. This is one part of the Catholic faith that I sometimes take issue with; the “we’re right and everybody else is wrong stance”. IMO, if one sincerely worships God and tries to peacefully live their life according to his teachings as they understand them, does this make them wrong in God’s eyes? Is a Methodist Christian less in God’s eyes than a Catholic one? I seem to think not.

 

[GKC]

With all due respect, just from where do you think I got the Petrine ministry from? It is found in St. Matthew’s gospel. I repeat what the Church teaches with regard to Anglican ordinations (and those of other Protestant ecclesial communities): these are invalid. Thus, communion is invalid due to a defect of form.

We are not Sola Scriptura. Remember that the Bible sprang from the Church, not the other way around. The Bible, as we know it, came about during an early Church council. Remember, too, that St. Paul exhorted the early Church to hold fast to the traditions they received from the Apostles.

For Anglicans, the RCC position would be that our sacraments are invalid, in the case of the Eucharist, due to invalidity of minister. That, in turn, would trace to a supposed invalidity of form and intent (the two must be take together) in the consecration of Archbishop Parker, in 1559, resulting in the loss of Apostolic Succession…

History is complicated, but interesting.

GKC

 

[benedictgal]

To the OP: Have you read Dominus Iesus? This document should effectively answer the questions that you have raised. This is what the document says, in part:

IV. UNICITY AND UNITY OF THE CHURCH

1. The Lord Jesus, the only Saviour, did not only establish a simple community of disciples, but constituted the Church as a salvific mystery: he himself is in the Church and the Church is in him (cf. Jn 15:1ff.; Gal 3:28; Eph 4:15 -16; Acts 9:5). Therefore, the fullness of Christ’s salvific mystery belongs also to the Church, inseparably united to her Lord. Indeed, Jesus Christ continues his presence and his work of salvation in the Church and by means of the Church (cf. Col 1:24-27), (47). which is his body (cf. 1 Cor 12:12-13, 27; Col 1:18) (48). And thus, just as the head and members of a living body, though not identical, are inseparable, so too Christ and the Church can neither be confused nor separated, and constitute a single whole Christ (49). This same inseparability is also expressed in the New Testament by the analogy of the Church as the Bride of Christ (cf. 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:25-29; Rev 21:2,9) (50).

Therefore, in connection with the unicity and universality of the salvific mediation of Jesus Christ, the unicity of the Church founded by him must be firmly believed as a truth of Catholic faith. Just as there is one Christ, so there exists a single body of Christ, a single Bride of Christ: a single Catholic and apostolic Church (51). Furthermore, the promises of the Lord that he would not abandon his Church (cf. Mt 16:18; 28:20) and that he would guide her by his Spirit (cf. Jn 16:13) mean, according to Catholic faith, that the unicity and the unity of the Church, like everything that belongs to the Church’s integrity, will never be lacking (52).

The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity rooted in the apostolic succession (53) between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: ‘This is the single Church of Christ… which our Saviour, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care (cf. Jn 21:17), commissioning him and the other Apostles to extend and rule her (cf. Mt 28:18ff.), erected for all ages as the pillar and mainstay of the truth’ (1 Tim 3:15). This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in [subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him (54). With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth (55), that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church (56). But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church (57).

1. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him (58). The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches (59). Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church (60).

When it was released, there was a firestorm among the Protestant ecclesial communities who called upon Pope John Paul to “correct” the document, ignoring the fact that he was the one who approved it. Pope John Paul II did not backtrack; instead, he fully supported everything that his eventual successor wrote.

 

[benedictgal]

FYI-- We are not Sola Scripture either… We have Scripture, Tradition and Reason.

benedictgal, you are doing an awesome job with sharing your Catholic faith.

I however will disagree with you again–We have valid Ordinations. I know that you can’t except this because your Pope tells you not to do so. That is fine.

Following your point with Paul–
Which of twelve Apostles, benedictgal, spoke of the Assumption of Mary?

God Bless!

Thank you for your kind words.

The Holy Father is the Vicar of Christ on Earth. He continues in the unbroken line of succession that began when Christ conferred the office of Vicar to St. Peter. Here is what Dominus Iesus says regarding the validity of orders (continuing from the previously quoted citation in my previous post):

***On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery (61), are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church (62). ***Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church (63).

The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection divided, yet in some way one of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach (64). In fact, the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities (65). Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church (66).

Regarding the Blessed Mother, she is referred to as “full of grace” in the account of the Annunciation found in St. Luke’s Gospel. She is full of grace because she is free from the stain of original sin. God had to prepare a fitting vessel for His Son to dwell. Since no stain of sin touched the Blessed Mother she was preserved from corruptibility. The psalms also speak to this, when they note that the “queen stands at your right hand arrayed in gold.” Furthermore, Mary is the fulfillment of the Ark of the Covenant because within her dwelt the real presence of God: in her dwelt the fulfillment of the Law, the eternal High Priest and the saving Manna from heaven: Jesus Christ.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

This thread is primarily addressed to former Catholics who joined the Episcopal Church, or for present Catholics who are former members of the Episcopal Church. However, others may join in.

I find myself being drawn to the Episcopal Church, in fact I went to one of their services yesterday. As a life long Catholic, it would be hard to leave the Catholic Church, but I find the Episcopal Church to possibly be a better fit for me and my present way of thinking. I constantly pray on it and ask God to lead me to where he thinks I should be.

I personally believe that if you are a Christian, you have the same chance as any other Christian in getting to Heaven someday; whether you are a Catholic or Protestant is secondary. Even if you are a different faith altogether doesn’t necessarily disqualify you, but that is a topic for a different thread. I know this thinking will alarm some of the hard core Catholics who hang on this forum, but that is how I feel.

Comments from the type of folks I addressed this too in the first paragraph?

I left the Catholic Church in July and was received into the Episcopal Church in late September. (the process is tailored more to the knowledge of the person. I have some theological training).

I am thrilled. I live in Iowa and my parish is medium in size. We have at least 75 different types of ministry work. I’m getting involved in a number of them. The educational opportunites are huge, with three major ways of continuing. The diocese is clear that nobody will be denied theological and biblical education for want of money.

I literally can’t wait for Sunday. Our service is deeply spiritual, and actually we do more of the things that are “supposed” to be done in RCC masses but aren’t in many i attended. We always say the Nicene creed for instance.

Our priest and deacon are wonderful. We are now in search of a new rector, our assistant rector doesn’t want to be in charge, given her age I think and that she lives about an hour away. Her husband is a priest in Iowa City. We are installing a new deacon in a week. She has been a member of our church for many years.

There are retreats several times a year, and a whole host of special guests and trips to various ecumenical conferences. We have a wonder Lenten program coming up that gives people a variety of opportunities to become involved.

Given my short time there, I am already helping to teach a weekly bible class ( We are just finishing Paul and his moral teachings), and I’m going to head up re-organizing our parish library. I intend to add some ministries, in the coming months.

The people in our parish are warm, open minded, very tolerant. We are sister parishes with a church in Swaziland and one in Scotland. The age range is huge from babies to the very elderly, and everyone seems to love the faith and each other. I’ve never felt so part of something so fast in my life.

I can only of course speak for my parish. I’m sure there are some that are not as wonderful. In any case, my suggestion would be to visit and let God lead you where you need to be. I have to laugh, because I walked in, and Father approached and asked if he could help me, and I said, “I’m a very unhappy Catholic!” He roared with laughter and said, well, I said the same thing many years ago myself. Join us today and let’s see how you feel afterward!"

I too thought I could never leave the RCC. But its been the best decision I have ever made. I think we all are called to the place that suits us best. For me it is in the Episcopal Church. Whether it is for you or not, well, you must decide.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

They are not valid. In fact, I believe it was one of the popes who declared their ordinations invalid through defect of form. Furthermore, as the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger defined, the Anglican denomination is not a church, but a Protestant ecclesial community, as are the Lutherans, Methodists, et al. The only sister Churches are the Orthodox.

As a Catholic, how can you subscribe to this notion? Have you, in all honesty, fully read what the Church teaches (i.e. the Catechism, the authoritative documents of the Holy See (Second Vatican Council–an not someone’s interpretation of the Spirit of it), the aforementioned Domins Iesus) and even the books of famed converts like the late Avery Cardinal Dulles, John Cardinal Newman and Fr. Richard John Neuhaus, each man having been converted from the Protestant ecclesial community?

We have 2,000 years of authentic spiritual heritage behind us. We were founded and established by no less than Jesus Christ HImself on the rock of St. Peter. Yes, we have had our struggles, but, we have the sure promise and guarantee of Jesus Christ, Himself, that the gates of Hell would never prevail against His Church. We also have the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, something that no one else has. That is also the fulfillment of his pledge, “Lo, I am with you always.”

They are not valid because you accept the teaching of your church. Period. We don’t accept the teaching of your church, and we do believe our sacraments are valid. This constant claim by some Catholics of their opinion that their faith is the only one is tiresome and hardly proving of anything. It remains as always unseemly and exceptionally rude.

But of course to say such things may be just the reason our OP is being led in another direction. It smacks in some sense that if some of you say this enough times you can convince yourselves that it is true. It doesn’t convince anyone else, so why continue?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

With all due respect, just from where do you think I got the Petrine ministry from? It is found in St. Matthew’s gospel. I repeat what the Church teaches with regard to Anglican ordinations (and those of other Protestant ecclesial communities): these are invalid. Thus, communion is invalid due to a defect of form.

We are not Sola Scriptura. Remember that the Bible sprang from the Church, not the other way around. The Bible, as we know it, came about during an early Church council. Remember, too, that St. Paul exhorted the early Church to hold fast to the traditions they received from the Apostles.

I would not begin to argue about a “defect in form.” And I daresay I doubt God is so petty.

 

[elgar]

“The Episcopal Church Welcomes You,” provided you go along with their apostacy of the last 40 years. Popular slogans like “Episcopalians don’t check their minds at the door before entering church” just smacks of the liberal elitism that is so pervasive in MOST dioceses. Trust me, I’ve seen and heard it all.