Episcopal Church

[GKC]

I would not begin to argue about a “defect in form.” And I daresay I doubt God is so petty.

See comment above. Historical accuracy and terminological precision are good things.

GKC

 

[benedictgal]

I would not begin to argue about a “defect in form.” And I daresay I doubt God is so petty.

The Truth, as revealed through Divine Revelation, is not pettiness, not by a long-shot.

The reason why these Protestant ecclesial communities came into existence is because they did not want to accept the fullness of the Truth. They only want the bits and pieces that they like and they leave out what does not appeal to them.

The fact remains that the ordinations of these ecclesial communities are not valid, nor are their sacraments.

I would ask the OP what the real, underlying reason is as to why he would be so willing to leave the True Church founded by Jesus Christ in favor of one founded by a monarch who, because he could not get his way, decided to head his own institution.

 

[benedictgal]

They are not valid because you accept the teaching of your church. Period. We don’t accept the teaching of your church, and we do believe our sacraments are valid. This constant claim by some Catholics of their opinion that their faith is the only one is tiresome and hardly proving of anything. It remains as always unseemly and exceptionally rude.

But of course to say such things may be just the reason our OP is being led in another direction. It smacks in some sense that if some of you say this enough times you can convince yourselves that it is true. It doesn’t convince anyone else, so why continue?

With all due respect, I might remind you that, whether you choose to admit it or not, you are still Catholic. The mark of Baptism, the mark of the Church remains in your soul forever. No matter how much protesting one does, he cannot take that away.

So, in effect, my Church is also your Church, whether you choose to admit it or not.

You have yet to refute anything that I have had to say regarding doctrinal matters. We have 2,000 years of Sacred Tradition behind us, along with Scripture. We have the geunine teachings of the Apostles. We have the promise of Jesus Christ that he will never abandon us nor will he allow the gates of hell to prevail against the Church that he founded on the rock of St. Peter. What, pray tell, do the Anglicans and Episcopalians have?

 

[elgar]

I left the Catholic Church in July and was received into the Episcopal Church in late September. (the process is tailored more to the knowledge of the person. I have some theological training).

I am thrilled. I live in Iowa and my parish is medium in size. We have at least 75 different types of ministry work. I’m getting involved in a number of them. The educational opportunites are huge, with three major ways of continuing. The diocese is clear that nobody will be denied theological and biblical education for want of money.

I literally can’t wait for Sunday. Our service is deeply spiritual, and actually we do more of the things that are “supposed” to be done in RCC masses but aren’t in many i attended. We always say the Nicene creed for instance.

Our priest and deacon are wonderful. We are now in search of a new rector, our assistant rector doesn’t want to be in charge, given her age I think and that she lives about an hour away. Her husband is a priest in Iowa City. We are installing a new deacon in a week. She has been a member of our church for many years.

There are retreats several times a year, and a whole host of special guests and trips to various ecumenical conferences. We have a wonder Lenten program coming up that gives people a variety of opportunities to become involved.

Given my short time there, I am already helping to teach a weekly bible class ( We are just finishing Paul and his moral teachings), and I’m going to head up re-organizing our parish library. I intend to add some ministries, in the coming months.

The people in our parish are warm, open minded, very tolerant. We are sister parishes with a church in Swaziland and one in Scotland. The age range is huge from babies to the very elderly, and everyone seems to love the faith and each other. I’ve never felt so part of something so fast in my life.

I can only of course speak for my parish. I’m sure there are some that are not as wonderful. In any case, my suggestion would be to visit and let God lead you where you need to be. I have to laugh, because I walked in, and Father approached and asked if he could help me, and I said, “I’m a very unhappy Catholic!” He roared with laughter and said, well, I said the same thing many years ago myself. Join us today and let’s see how you feel afterward!"

I too thought I could never leave the RCC. But its been the best decision I have ever made. I think we all are called to the place that suits us best. For me it is in the Episcopal Church. Whether it is for you or not, well, you must decide.

SpiritMeadow–

I live in Iowa also and left TEC for good one week ago over foundational issues that pertain to the “Christian” faith. Of course our bishop said we–a majority of our congregation BTW–were using one issue (consecration of an avowed non-celibate homosexual bishop) back in 2003 as our discontent with the Episcopal Church. I couldn’t agree more. We’re talking about a church that has gone off the deep end and is hemmoridging members with no stop in sight.

I hate to put a damper on your new found denomination, but I being a former RC was also excited to find the almost perfect church 25 years ago only to be rejected and told to leave if unhappy. My qualms with the RC were not so much over doctrine but liturgical abuse. This will be my biggest challenge in the weeks and months ahead as the Roman Catholic Churches here are abysmal liturgically. There are possibilites though with Orthodox Anglican churches (Global South) yet to be formed and Eastern Orthodoxy.

 

[GKC]

SpiritMeadow–

I live in Iowa also and left TEC for good one week ago over foundational issues that pertain to the “Christian” faith. Of course our bishop said we–a majority of our congregation BTW–were using one issue (consecration of an avowed non-celibate homosexual bishop) back in 2003 as our discontent with the Episcopal Church. I couldn’t agree more. We’re talking about a church that has gone off the deep end and is hemmoridging members with no stop in sight.

I hate to put a damper on your new found denomination, but I being a former RC was also excited to find the almost perfect church 25 years ago only to be rejected and told to leave if unhappy. My qualms with the RC were not so much over doctrine but liturgical abuse. This will be my biggest challenge in the weeks and months ahead as the Roman Catholic Churches here are abysmal liturgically. There are possibilites though with Orthodox Anglican churches (Global South) yet to be formed and Eastern Orthodoxy.

And for the orthodox Anglicans who form the Anglican Continuum.

GKC

 

[benedictgal]

SpiritMeadow–

I live in Iowa also and left TEC for good one week ago over foundational issues that pertain to the “Christian” faith. Of course our bishop said we–a majority of our congregation BTW–were using one issue (consecration of an avowed non-celibate homosexual bishop) back in 2003 as our discontent with the Episcopal Church. I couldn’t agree more. We’re talking about a church that has gone off the deep end and is hemmoridging members with no stop in sight.

I hate to put a damper on your new found denomination, but I being a former RC was also excited to find the almost perfect church 25 years ago only to be rejected and told to leave if unhappy. My qualms with the RC were not so much over doctrine but liturgical abuse. This will be my biggest challenge in the weeks and months ahead as the Roman Catholic Churches here are abysmal liturgically. There are possibilites though with Orthodox Anglican churches (Global South) yet to be formed and Eastern Orthodoxy.

Do not think that I have it easy down here. I have seen more liturgical abuses than I can count. I have been frustrated and disappointed with things down here. In a fit of anger (and near despair), I fired off an email to the late Fr. Richard John Neuhaus and commented on the state of things down here.

You can imagine the shock I experienced when I checked my inbox and received a real reply from him. He said he shared my concerns and he reminded me of the promise that Christ made to St. Peter and his successors that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church.

When Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger was elected Pope, I pretty much wanted to scream for joy in the chapel. I really do believe that we are heading for better things. We just have to hang on and trust that Jesus will not abandon us. He is already beginning to clean up the liturgy and has made the TLM more readily available, meaning that parishes don’t have to go through their bishops for permission. Inasmuch as there are some who will put up roadblocks to what the Holy Father is trying to accomplish, he will prevail.

 

[elgar]

I understand exactly what you mean. The same thing happened to me a couple years back. To speak the truth, I haven’t been to a RC mass since. Just be ready for a huge backlash for even having those thoughts on this forum though.

I hope you have found a Christian church in the mean time instead of just being angry, proud and staying home on Sundays. We all need to do what we need to do.

For me I’ve concluded there is no real difference between liberal Catholicism and Liberal Protestantism. You can jump from TEC to ELCA, UCC, Unitarianism, and other like-minded groups and you will end up disappointed. Of course I’m speaking of unhappy Catholics. We need to quit feeling sorry for ourselves and build up the Kingdom of God and start bringing our brothers and sisters to Christ. I don’t care whether it falls under Catholic or Reformed.

 

[kellie]

but I find the Episcopal Church to possibly be a better fit for me and my present way of thinking.

The Truth isn’t about us finding what fits us

It is about us fitting in with what God wants from us

You have it the wrong way around

Yes, it may be tough as a Catholic, following all that God wants from us, but He is there for strength, just pray

 

[benedictgal]

The Truth isn’t about us finding what fits us

It is about us fitting in with what God wants from us

You have it the wrong way around

Yes, it may be tough as a Catholic, following all that God wants from us, but He is there for strength, just pray

That is correct!

The situation the OP addressed reminds me of the disgust with which Jesus’ audience displayed in the sixth chapter of John’s Gospel during the Lord’s discourse on the Eucharist. The people did not want to accept this teaching and walked away. Oh yes, Jesus had just fed them and they wanted to carry him off and make him their king. However, once His message became unacceptable, they left Him. The only ones remaiing were the 12.

Jesus asked them straight out if they, too, were going to leave Him. Peter, his Vicar, told him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of everlasting life?” Thus, a Catholic who may not be solidly grounded in his Faith, faces this question from Jesus, especially when temptation arises and Jesus asks him if he, too, is going to leave. Jesus never said that His Church was going to have it easy. Just look at the end of St. Matthew’s gospel where Jesus predicts wholesale persecution. Furthermore, each of the Apostles had much to suffer (even St. John who was not martyred). They remained faithful to the end.

 

[mikew262]

The Truth isn’t about us finding what fits us

It is about us fitting in with what God wants from us

You have it the wrong way around

Yes, it may be tough as a Catholic, following all that God wants from us, but He is there for strength, just pray

As I indicated before, perhaps a poor choice of words on my part. However, I am considering that perhaps God is trying to lead me in a different direction where I can establish a better relationship with him; possibly the Episcopal Church? Yes, I’m praying on it.

 

[chris_molter]

As I indicated before, perhaps a poor choice of words on my part. However, I am considering that perhaps God is trying to lead me in a different direction where I can establish a better relationship with him; possibly the Episcopal Church? Yes, I’m praying on it.

The difficult thing is that, as Catholics, we believe that the Episcopal Church is in serious error. Therefore, if the Catholic Church is what she claims to be, then God cannot lead you out of her and into a body which teaches heresy. If the Catholic Church is NOT what she claims to be, then by all means, get out while you can, because surely she’s a spiritual danger to all her members.

That’s the scandalous thing about Catholicism. She claims so much for herself that if it’s true, you MUST join her, or if not, you MUST flee her.

Today, it’s much easier… much more comfortable… to be a member of a church that doesn’t make these lofty claims and difficult demands.

I can’t condemn anyone who decides to follow their conscience out of the Church. But, being a convert, it wounds me to see someone who already HAS the Truth sitting right there walk away from it. It’s a terribly sad thing for me to see.

My recommendation is to keep praying, but ALSO do some more research and reading into what the Church teaches and why (regarding the things you may not agree with). Also, maybe try worshipping at a different parish, perhaps an Eastern Rite parish if one’s available. I’ll keep you in my prayers, Mike.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

See comment above. Historical accuracy and terminological precision are good things.

GKC

You may believe what you wish, but I have a terribly hard time thinking that God worries about “terminological precision”. I think he judges the heart.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

The Truth, as revealed through Divine Revelation, is not pettiness, not by a long-shot.

The reason why these Protestant ecclesial communities came into existence is because they did not want to accept the fullness of the Truth. They only want the bits and pieces that they like and they leave out what does not appeal to them.

The fact remains that the ordinations of these ecclesial communities are not valid, nor are their sacraments.

I would ask the OP what the real, underlying reason is as to why he would be so willing to leave the True Church founded by Jesus Christ in favor of one founded by a monarch who, because he could not get his way, decided to head his own institution.

If you can prove your points outside of the statements of your own church which teaches you this, then I invite you to. Until then, we will continue to remind you and amend your remarks as your personal opinion.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

With all due respect, I might remind you that, whether you choose to admit it or not, you are still Catholic. The mark of Baptism, the mark of the Church remains in your soul forever. No matter how much protesting one does, he cannot take that away.

So, in effect, my Church is also your Church, whether you choose to admit it or not.

You have yet to refute anything that I have had to say regarding doctrinal matters. We have 2,000 years of Sacred Tradition behind us, along with Scripture. We have the geunine teachings of the Apostles. We have the promise of Jesus Christ that he will never abandon us nor will he allow the gates of hell to prevail against the Church that he founded on the rock of St. Peter. What, pray tell, do the Anglicans and Episcopalians have?

with all due respect was that also true of all those who were forced into baptism in Spain? The Jews especially. Are they forced against their will to now be Catholics?

You have yet to prove you personal beliefs. You cannot use your Church’s doctrine as evidence of the truth of their own claims. That is the worst sort of circular reasoning. As I said, we are thrilled that you love your Church. Why you have to belittle other people’s choice is beyond me. It’s very uncharitible of you to say the least.

We have everything you have, and we are most happy with it. You of course mistake the universal church for the RCC. As I said, I have no interest in belittling your faith or church. I find it most unseemly that this is now considered the Catholic way—to be rude meanspirited and ugly toward other Christians. Who exactly are you trying to convince?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

SpiritMeadow–

I live in Iowa also and left TEC for good one week ago over foundational issues that pertain to the “Christian” faith. Of course our bishop said we–a majority of our congregation BTW–were using one issue (consecration of an avowed non-celibate homosexual bishop) back in 2003 as our discontent with the Episcopal Church. I couldn’t agree more. We’re talking about a church that has gone off the deep end and is hemmoridging members with no stop in sight.

I hate to put a damper on your new found denomination, but I being a former RC was also excited to find the almost perfect church 25 years ago only to be rejected and told to leave if unhappy. My qualms with the RC were not so much over doctrine but liturgical abuse. This will be my biggest challenge in the weeks and months ahead as the Roman Catholic Churches here are abysmal liturgically. There are possibilites though with Orthodox Anglican churches (Global South) yet to be formed and Eastern Orthodoxy.

It is unfortunate. I am in a parish that has no issue with the GLTB community and remain open to them. It’s amazing to see women in their 80’s with such tolerance. I’m sorry you feel differently, but of course, you must go where you feel is proper according to your heartfelt beliefs.

I don’t think there is anything in the bible that speaks against homosexuality as it is understood today. We in fact just finished a study of that in our adult bible study.

I disagree that it is losing members as you suggest. We have a healthy number of new people coming in on a regular basis, the vast majority are RCC who have left in deep unhappiness.

I left the Roman church over many issues, many of them doctrinal. I find it’s stance regarding homosexuality and women appalling and not biblical at all. I find the priest scandal simply unacceptable and shameful in such an extreme that I wonder how these bishops and archbishops can show their faces, their deeds are so reprehensible.

I am not unaware of the split without my church. I understand in large part why it has happened, yet our position has always been, we argue during the week, and come to worship together on Sunday. I think that is proper. I know in my parish, every effort is made to remain tolerant of other points of view, and to not cast aspersions on others we disagree with, no matter how badly wrong we think they are. We believe in charity toward fundamentalists and others who cannot find room in their heart for the “other”.

Blessings and good luck to you in your quest to find the right home.

 

[benedictgal]

with all due respect was that also true of all those who were forced into baptism in Spain? The Jews especially. Are they forced against their will to now be Catholics?

You have yet to prove you personal beliefs. You cannot use your Church’s doctrine as evidence of the truth of their own claims. That is the worst sort of circular reasoning. As I said, we are thrilled that you love your Church. Why you have to belittle other people’s choice is beyond me. It’s very uncharitible of you to say the least.

We have everything you have, and we are most happy with it. You of course mistake the universal church for the RCC. As I said, I have no interest in belittling your faith or church. I find it most unseemly that this is now considered the Catholic way—to be rude meanspirited and ugly toward other Christians. Who exactly are you trying to convince?

Might I remind you that you are still part of us. You may deny the Church, but, she does not deny you. Furthermore, you do not have everything that the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has because you do not have the Fullness of Truth nor do you have valid holy orders. Invalid holy orders reults in invalid sacraments. Thus, the communion you receive is not real.

For a protestant ecclesial community that claims to be sciptural, it is rather disconcerting that it would be at odds with the biblical teaching regarding homosexuality. The other issue regarding women is pretty much a non-issue. There is no scriptural precedent for having women ordained into the priesthood and the Church has no power to change what Christ has already ordained. It is a false sense of liberty to believe otherwise.

It is not an issue of belittling. It is an issue of presenting the facts, which the Church, through the document Dominus Iesus, has presented and presented quite clearly.

 

[mercygate]

This thread is primarily addressed to former Catholics who joined the Episcopal Church, or for present Catholics who are former members of the Episcopal Church. However, others may join in.

I find myself being drawn to the Episcopal Church, in fact I went to one of their services yesterday. As a life long Catholic, it would be hard to leave the Catholic Church, but I find the Episcopal Church to possibly be a better fit for me and my present way of thinking. I constantly pray on it and ask God to lead me to where he thinks I should be.

I personally believe that if you are a Christian, you have the same chance as any other Christian in getting to Heaven someday; whether you are a Catholic or Protestant is secondary. Even if you are a different faith altogether doesn’t necessarily disqualify you, but that is a topic for a different thread. I know this thinking will alarm some of the hard core Catholics who hang on this forum, but that is how I feel.

Comments from the type of folks I addressed this too in the first paragraph?

Waht you find in the Episcopal Church will be determined entirely by the congregation in which you find yourself. For me, as a convert to the Catholic Church, the hinge was asking myself why I was in a Church that claimed to have Apostolic Succession but where Peter was not in the house of bishops.

 

[GKC]

You may believe what you wish, but I have a terribly hard time thinking that God worries about “terminological precision”. I think he judges the heart.

Perhaps. But I wasn’t referring to God’s judgment, but to actual historical fact relating to what the RCC says about Anglican orders, correcting stated errors. I wasn’t even asserting that I agreed with the facts.

I believe what I find compelling, particularly as supported by historical fact, as I presume you do, too, but that wasn’t the point.

GKC

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Might I remind you that you are still part of us. You may deny the Church, but, she does not deny you. Furthermore, you do not have everything that the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has because you do not have the Fullness of Truth nor do you have valid holy orders. Invalid holy orders reults in invalid sacraments. Thus, the communion you receive is not real.

For a protestant ecclesial community that claims to be sciptural, it is rather disconcerting that it would be at odds with the biblical teaching regarding homosexuality. The other issue regarding women is pretty much a non-issue. There is no scriptural precedent for having women ordained into the priesthood and the Church has no power to change what Christ has already ordained. It is a false sense of liberty to believe otherwise.

It is not an issue of belittling. It is an issue of presenting the facts, which the Church, through the document Dominus Iesus, has presented and presented quite clearly.

I am not a part of you, because I don’t espouse what you believe. You may believe whatever works for you on the issue. If you believe I am still RCC, by all means do so. It has no impact on me. Again, you have offered no proof on the issues of validity of orders and such, and they remain your opinion and those of your church. Can we stop beating this to death? It is so sad for someone to talk to another like this. As I said, believe as you wish, but there is a point when it is better to be silent that to insult for no reason than because you believe you are right.

I have spend a good deal of time studying scripture, and I am convinced, that properly understood there are no biblical objections to homosexuality today nor women’s ordination. These do require independent study rather than simple adherence to doctrine of one’s church. I am clear what the RCC teaches. I do not agree and neither do a plethora of Catholic theologians by the way. Of course Christ made no direct statements on either of these issues, but his radical treatment of women speaks volumes in favor of the fact that he might be hugely shocked at your conclusion that he bars the way.

If you cannot keep your remarks in the venue of what they are, you opinion based on what your church teaches, then your remarks are insulting and unseemly from a charitible point of view. Your truth is not necessarily anothers, and your church has no proof that it’s interpretation on anything is correct. It is your belief, and that is well and good. Belief would be the key word here.

 

[mercygate]

FYI-- We are not Sola Scripture either… We have Scripture, Tradition and Reason.

benedictgal, you are doing an awesome job with sharing your Catholic faith.

I however will disagree with you again–We have valid Ordinations. I know that you can’t except this because your Pope tells you not to do so. That is fine.

Following your point with Paul–
Which of twelve Apostles, benedictgal, spoke of the Assumption of Mary?

God Bless!

Emerald, as a former Episcopalian, who firmly believed in the validity of Anglican Orders, I always found it useful to approach Catholics with full respect for their position. After all, it is cogent and historical. They have sound reasons for declaring Anglican Orders “absolutely null and utterly void.” Keep in mind that Rome has never felt compelled to declare Orthodox orders invalid.