Episcopal Committee Is Working on Gay Rite

[Soldier_X]

And yes, I know that the above outburst is perhaps a bit of an exaggeration. But not by much. No offense intended to any faithful Episcopalians (I’m right there with ya). But it seems fruitless to try to defend any decisions made by any of our leaders, and the AC’s leadership barely deserves to be called leadership. Even if + Rowan Cantuar is showing a little more backbone, it’s too little too late. And nothing anybody does can stop the madness here in the US.

Thus, DESPITE Scripture, Tradition, and Reason…there is an Episcopal Committee working on a Gay Rite.

 

[gamewell45]

There is no such thing as marriage for same sex couples.

In the Catholic Church I’m sure you mean.

 

[1holycatholic]

In the Catholic Church I’m sure you mean.

In reality.

 

[Third_Day]

=Dale_M;6900438]No, I am not. Although some people may decide that is acceptable, given their understanding of the world.

Are you saying is that if someone believes abortion is acceptable then it is acceptable in the eyes of God?

We each do - including yourself. You have decided, given your understanding of the world, that it is right to let the Church provide guidance in faith and morals

. I haven’t decided that out of the clear blue. i believe that scripture is the word of God and the word of God says that the Church is the pillar and foundatin of the truth. It does not say that you and I are.

But it is still a decision you have made, and continue to make every day.

Even an atheist knows in his heart what is right and what is wrong. Where did that morality come from? It came from the natural law that is written in everymans heart by God.

According to your understanding that there is no absolute right or wrong do I have the right to kill my neighbor if I believe it is right?

Do I have the right to have sexual relations with a consenting 15 year old girl?

 

[Anna_Scott]

But if a couple marries and discovers they are childless, barren, unable to procreate, this is not against the natural law. They were born with the potential, the biology to procreate, but for whatever reason they cannot now have children. Their nature is male and female and their biological potential is affirming the godly state of sexuality. Homosexuality goes against everything the natural law demonstrates as normal and godly. How we can be having the conversation about two men sodomizing each other as holy let alone permissible in God’s eyes, I’ll never know.

Gene Robinson’s views are vile as are his own personal life social antics. The man played an instrumental role in the breakdown of the Anglican communion and his reasoning is modernistic tripe—a secular-valued brand of the new Christology and a sad, pathetic vision of the human relationship with God. I am blown away that anyone would give him the time of day.

We can sit here and look at the marriage debate and say, ‘well the Bible prohibitions against homosexuality were barbaric, backwards, and they didn’t understand the gay lifestyle the way we enlightened 21st Century folks do. They saw women as property and they didn’t understand sexuality as we do. Gays are born this way and have no choice. They’re, in fact, made to be gay so it’s a Godly estate.’ If we want to go down that road, why isn’t it just as healthy to raise a child in a plural marriage with two women and a man? What’s wrong with that? Or how about raising a child in a commune where free sex is exchanged between partners? Or why even have marriage at all? Where does the modern rationalization for this stuff end? The slipperly-slope argument is not cliche, tired, or thin. It makes plenty of sense. And it will indeed happen. There is always an argument that sick behavior is innate or unavoidable. The Catholics are dead-on right about gay marriage and I consider it one of their strengths as a religion to combat it morally.

Gurney,

I agree with you. It’s a sad day for TEC, and the wake of destruction is just about to break wide open.

Anna

 

[Dale_M]

Are you saying is that if someone believes abortion is acceptable then it is acceptable in the eyes of God?

No, I am not saying that.

I haven’t decided that out of the clear blue. i believe that scripture is the word of God and the word of God says that the Church is the pillar and foundatin of the truth.

Yes, that is exactly my point. You have decided what is right and good and then responded accordingly. Everyone does that. This doesn’t make everyone right, however.

 

[Third_Day]

=Dale_M;6901870]No, I am not saying that.

But you are saying that. You are saying that morality is left up to the individual. If a man believes that having sex with a consenting 15 year old girl is OK then it must be OK. That is what you are saying.

Yes, that is exactly my point. You have decided what is right and good and then responded accordingly. Everyone does that. This doesn’t make everyone right, however.

Everyone doesn’t do that. Morality is based on what is in scripture and what has been handed down through sacred tradition. I haven’t decided what is right and good based on my conscience or based on what "feels " right. How we should live our lives comes from the word of God.
An atheist that lives a morally good life may never have read the scriptures nonetheless he is living according to the natural law given to us by God that Paul talks about in Romans 2:12-16
What is right and wrong cannot come from how one feels. It can only come from our Creator who gave us the moral law.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don’t want to speak for Dale but I will say that sometimes we forget that we are all, as individuals, deciding these matters, in reality. The reason I say that is simple. Let’s take my friend, Bruce. He was an Episcopalian, a Presbyterian before that. He saw the Episcopal Church was going downhill in a HUGE way morally so he started looking around. Bruce was already pro-life, anti gay marriage, against women pastors, hated cohabitation and pre-marital sex, and is a conservative Republican, a traditional guy who won’t even watch any TV unless it’s pre-1970 or so.

Bruce shopped around. He saw a Church that had these same beliefs that he already had. He didn’t like some of the Marian stuff and wasn’t totally sure about the contraception stuff. He thought about the contraception part and didn’t really care because he’s over 55 and his wife is 60 so who cares?

Bruce joined the Catholic Church. I was actually his sponsor at the time through RCIA. He joins the Church because the pope, for the most part, teaches what he already believes. So he is making the decision to allow the pope to lead him based upon previous agreements with what the pope teaches anyway. So, in allowing the pope to be his shepherd, Bruce is really making the moral decisions anyway. He’s allowing someone else to tell him what to do. So in a way it’s Bruce making the decisions…if that makes any sense?

And like many conservative friends I have in this category, when the Church says something fervently pro-life, he’s thrilled (as am I). When the Church fights gay marriage here in California, he’s a happy camper (so am I). But when the Church tells us we should support illegal immigrants and sign on with Obama’s universal health care, Bruce’s enthusiasm takes a fascinating turn…

But you are saying that. You are saying that morality is left up to the individual. If a man believes that having sex with a consenting 15 year old girl is OK then it must be OK. That is what you are saying.

Everyone doesn’t do that. Morality is based on what is in scripture and what has been handed down through sacred tradition. I haven’t decided what is right and good based on my conscience or based on what "feels " right. How we should live our lives comes from the word of God.
An atheist that lives a morally good life may never have read the scriptures nonetheless he is living according to the natural law given to us by God that Paul talks about in Romans 2:12-16
What is right and wrong cannot come from how one feels. It can only come from our Creator who gave us the moral law.

 

[Holly3278]

I see nothing wrong with giving homosexual people the same blessings that a heterosexual person would get other than a blessing of a marriage or a relationship. Homosexual couples should not receive any sort of blessing unless it is a blessing for one of the partners in the Sacrament of Confession that they confess their sins well that most people get at the beginning of Confession. That said, I don’t think that this “gay rite” is going to be that. I think that they are primarily looking at blessings for homosexual couples.

 

[Dale_M]

But you are saying that.

No, you are confusing the results of a decision making process with the decision making process itself. Someone earlier used a math analogy - just because two persons make mathematical calculations doesn’t mean that both results are valid, if they differ. However, despite differing results, they both made choices based upon their understanding of what is right. When if comes to morality, you do the same as, say, President Obama. This doesn’t mean that both of you are right… just that you both made decisions based upon your understanding of the world.

Everyone doesn’t do that. Morality is based on what is in scripture and what has been handed down through sacred tradition. I haven’t decided what is right and good based on my conscience or based on what "feels " right.

What you have done is to decide that the Church teaches what is right. And you entrust the Church with guiding your moral decisions. That is fine. We all make decisions.

But the results of your decision making process (trusting what the Church says) does not eliminate the fact that you have decided to have faith in what the Church teaches.

You have decided to follow the Church and everyday continue to make that choice, so long as you have faith in what the Catholic Church teaches. You may not determine the specifics of what the Catholic Church teaches, but that doesn’t matter. You have decided to follow its teachings.

Getting back to the comment which sparked this discussion:

And for the fifty-million-trillionth time since Adam, somebody decides for themselves what is good.

Everyone decides what is good. Timotheos and yourself have decided that the good consists in trusting what the Catholic Church teaches. But it is still a decision on your parts.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I don’t want to speak for Dale but I will say that sometimes we forget that we are all, as individuals, deciding these matters, in reality. The reason I say that is simple. Let’s take my friend, Bruce. He was an Episcopalian, a Presbyterian before that. He saw the Episcopal Church was going downhill in a HUGE way morally so he started looking around. Bruce was already pro-life, anti gay marriage, against women pastors, hated cohabitation and pre-marital sex, and is a conservative Republican, a traditional guy who won’t even watch any TV unless it’s pre-1970 or so.

Bruce shopped around. He saw a Church that had these same beliefs that he already had. He didn’t like some of the Marian stuff and wasn’t totally sure about the contraception stuff. He thought about the contraception part and didn’t really care because he’s over 55 and his wife is 60 so who cares?

Bruce joined the Catholic Church. I was actually his sponsor at the time through RCIA. He joins the Church because the pope, for the most part, teaches what he already believes. So he is making the decision to allow the pope to lead him based upon previous agreements with what the pope teaches anyway. So, in allowing the pope to be his shepherd, Bruce is really making the moral decisions anyway. He’s allowing someone else to tell him what to do. So in a way it’s Bruce making the decisions…if that makes any sense?

And like many conservative friends I have in this category, when the Church says something fervently pro-life, he’s thrilled (as am I). When the Church fights gay marriage here in California, he’s a happy camper (so am I). But when the Church tells us we should support illegal immigrants and sign on with Obama’s universal health care, Bruce’s enthusiasm takes a fascinating turn…

it sounds like your friend bruce and i are in the same boat!

 

[Third_Day]

=gurneyhalleck1;6901988] So, in allowing the pope to be his shepherd, Bruce is really making the moral decisions anyway. He’s allowing someone else to tell him what to do. So in a way it’s Bruce making the decisions…if that makes any sense?

It seems to me that Bruce is allowing the Church, whom he believes speaks for Christ, show him what is objectively true. That is far different than what Dale is proposing which is that each individual decides what is morally acceptable.
Can morality be based on ones own feelings, ones own experience or maybe even what one has read in Playboy magazine?.

But when the Church tells us we should support illegal immigrants and sign on with Obama’s universal health care, Bruce’s enthusiasm takes a fascinating turn…

When has the Church stated we should support “illegal” immigrants or sign on with Obama’s healthcare?. No Church teaching says “Illegal immigrants come on in”.

The Church supports “legal” immigration but we now have a situation where 12 million are illegally here and what do we do with them? Is it morally acceptalbe to send 12 million packing to a country that cannot sustain them? Can 12 million be dumped on Mexico all at once? That would make a 10.0 earthquake small in comparison. This is what concerns the Church.

 

[Third_Day]

Dale_M;6902025]. Someone earlier used a math analogy - just because two persons make mathematical calculations doesn’t mean that both results are valid

2+2 = 4 is an objective truth. If someone says 2+2=5 they are objectively wrong.
Let’s say they insist that they are right. What are they basing their belief on? Is it because they feel it is right, someone else told them it is right or is it because they never bothered to read a book on mathematics.

However, despite differing results, they both made choices based upon their understanding of what is right.

But only one is right. The same is true of morality. A person may say gay marriage is morally acceptable. What is that based on? A person may say sex with children is morally acceptable. What is that based on?

When if comes to morality, you do the same as, say, President Obama. This doesn’t mean that both of you are right… just that you both made decisions based upon your understanding of the world.

Our decision must be based on the only moral teacher that exist on the earth, the Church. I see why you are a former Catholic. You reject the authority of the Church to decide for you what is morally acceptable.You want to decide for yourself. In doing so you reject the word of God and I suspect you are one step away from rejecting God.

What you have done is to decide that the Church teaches what is right. And you entrust the Church with guiding your moral decisions. That is fine. We all make decisions.

We all make decions based on what? Let me ask you again. Is it morally accpetable for a man to have sexual relations with a consenting 15 year old? You want to avoid answering that question.

But the results of your decision making process (trusting what the Church says) does not eliminate the fact that you have decided to have faith in what the Church teaches

. Absolutely. Morality comes from what the Church teaches. Isn’t morality based on the ten commandments? Isn’t that the foundation for all moral teachings?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

**Hi Third, blessings to you, friend.

I agree to a point. Each individual should look at the holistic teachings of Christendom over history and defer to caution, no doubt. But my point is that Bruce decided that the Church fit HIM, not that he should conform to the Church.

And as far as Playboy goes, if you’re allowing Hugh Hefner to influence ANY of your thinking, you’re too far gone to know the Truth already! **

It seems to me that Bruce is allowing the Church, whom he believes speaks for Christ, show him what is objectively true. That is far different than what Dale is proposing which is that each individual decides what is morally acceptable.
Can morality be based on ones own feelings, ones own experience or maybe even what one has read in Playboy magazine?.

**The U.S. council of bishops have spoken out sympathetically about the illegals and my own bishop got on TV recently and said that it is our duty to support our illegal brothers and sisters in Christ and support amnesty and oppose any measures aimed at deportation or singling out illegals, blasted the Arizona law, etc. And also you must have missed it when the U.S. council of Catholic bishops IN WRITING signed onto Obama’s health care plan after he took out the abortion language. They totally signed on and officially proclaimed that Catholics should support it. It’s on their website. It’s easy to Google, etc. **
When has the Church stated we should support “illegal” immigrants or sign on with Obama’s healthcare?. No Church teaching says “Illegal immigrants come on in”.

** Well my opinion is the United States government should first totally secure the border with tens of thousands of troops, build more security walls, use the national guard, beef it all up bigtime and keep all illegals OUT. Then we should take ICE and other branches of homeland security, and deport every single last one of them over the next several years. Then, allow the deported ones priority to sign onto a guest worker program that will be comprehensive, give them ID, keep them registered and tracked, and ineligible from social security or medicare, only medicaid and they must pay fees and the like. Deporting them would be costly, unpopular with the P.C. crowd, but it would save us billions in taking them out of the school system, taking them out of the emergency rooms, freeing up our prison system, cutting down the murders and drug trade, gangs etc. This is where I totally disagree with the Church. The Church panders to the hispanic demographics in the Southwest, totally. I say let’s have that 10.0 earthquake, then do clean-up, then be stronger for it… **
The Church supports “legal” immigration but we now have a situation where 12 million are illegally here and what do we do with them? Is it morally acceptalbe to send 12 million packing to a country that cannot sustain them? Can 12 million be dumped on Mexico all at once? That would make a 10.0 earthquake small in comparison. This is what concerns the Church.

 

[Dale_M]

But only one is right. The same is true of morality.

Hurray! I am glad we agree.

Our decision must be based on the only moral teacher that exist on the earth, the Church.

That makes sense… but my point is that you are making a decision. We all make decisions. Some of us choose rightly, and others do not.

I see why you are a former Catholic. You reject the authority of the Church to decide for you what is morally acceptable.You want to decide for yourself. In doing so you reject the word of God and I suspect you are one step away from rejecting God.

I don’t think I am doing anything different that you are. For the record, I love God very much. But whereas you have decided to let the Catholic Church act as a proxy for your faith and moral guidance, I have not made that choice.

But each of us are making decisions about what is good. That is the only point I have made.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But Bruce is 100% through and through Catholic and is ANTI-Protestant and ANTI-Anglican now and a half! He’s totally 100% sold on the Magisterium and infallibility and nit-picks to death. He’s WAY overly-scrupulous over the tiniest thing and is way too works-oriented for me. He had to make an emergency appointment with his busy priest just to make sure he was “using his scapular properly!” I don’t think you and he are anything alike! He is sold, no questions asked.

it sounds like your friend bruce and i are in the same boat!

 

[Third_Day]

But Bruce is 100% through and through Catholic and is ANTI-Protestant and ANTI-Anglican now and a half! He’s totally 100% sold on the Magisterium and infallibility and nit-picks to death. He’s WAY overly-scrupulous over the tiniest thing and is way too works-oriented for me. He had to make an emergency appointment with his busy priest just to make sure he was “using his scapular properly!” I don’t think you and he are anything alike! He is sold, no questions asked.

Bruce is suffering what is called Scrupulosity. Send him this link. Being over scrupulous is not a part of Catholic teaching.

ncpamd.com/scrup.htm

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I suffered from it as well and I happen to think Catholicism causes one to be far more apt to being overly scrupulous because instead of looking at ourselves as sinners, falling short of God’s glory, instead of seeing our entire humanity as fallen and in need of total repair by Christ, Catholicism focuses on specific sins and analyzing one’s conscience constantly, confessing each detail. This way of thinking leads to scrupulosity. Ask Martin Luther! LOL It’s not an official part of Catholic teaching, but it’s a side effect…

Bruce is suffering what is called Scrupulosity. Send him this link. Being over scrupulous is not a part of Catholic teaching.

ncpamd.com/scrup.htm

 

[Third_Day]

I suffered from it as well and I happen to think Catholicism causes one to be far more apt to being overly scrupulous because instead of looking at ourselves as sinners, falling short of God’s glory, instead of seeing our entire humanity as fallen and in need of total repair by Christ, Catholicism focuses on specific sins and analyzing one’s conscience constantly, confessing each detail. This way of thinking leads to scrupulosity. Ask Martin Luther! LOL It’s not an official part of Catholic teaching, but it’s a side effect…

First let me ask you to take the time and read this on the Church’s teaching on immigration. I agree with everything that it said. I consider myself to be a conservative on all social issues. I believe that the Catholic Church’s stand is reasonable.
justiceforimmigrants.org/documents/wester-interview.pdf

I’m 60 years old. I’ve been a Catholic all my life. I never even had a thought of leaving the Church. I have never suffered from being over scrupulous so I don’t think you can blame scrupulosity on the teachings of the Church. There are a billion Catholics. How many suffer from it? Very few I am sure.

 

[CMatt25]

Everyone doesn’t do that. Morality is based on what is in scripture and what has been handed down through sacred tradition. I haven’t decided what is right and good based on my conscience or based on what "feels " right. How we should live our lives comes from the word of God.

Sure they do and in reality you do as well.

You have decided to place your faith in Scripture, in the Catholic Church’s interpretation of Herself and in Her and the ECF’s interpretations of all matters of faith and morals and have decided their writings and teachings are without err.

I don’t know why poople can’t or won’t admit this I can only venture one possibility why folks have trouble with this is because to do so lessens the comfort which comes with thinking we know everything with 100% absolute certainty. When in reality it does comes down to faith.

Peace to all who walk in faith and to all as we journey together on this earth.