Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina leaves the Episcopal Church

[Dave_Noonan]

It…thanks for providing the news…however, I do have one request.

I read the links…but could not understand or decipher the issues surrounding the why the diocese is seceding, in layman’s terms.

And since you are there…could you summarize, in a nutshell what is the issue? And what will happen to the dioscese? Will it affiliate with another A of E/Episcopal branch?

I couldn’t make much sense of the underlying issues either.

But this same thing happened here in California with one of the Episcopal dioceses a number of years ago, although I’m sure the issues differ at various points. Basically the seceding bishop was prohibited from acting as bishop by the presiding bishop, there were some fights and lawsuits over property, the people who left associated with various other Anglican splinter groups, a new bishop was appointed, and things sort of went on as before only with fewer people.

 

[GKC]

It…thanks for providing the news…however, I do have one request.

I read the links…but could not understand or decipher the issues surrounding the why the diocese is seceding, in layman’s terms.

And since you are there…could you summarize, in a nutshell what is the issue? And what will happen to the dioscese? Will it affiliate with another A of E/Episcopal branch?

It is leaving the Episcopal Church because the national level organization tried to inhibit +Lawrence in his episcopal functions. What happens next no one knows yet.

GKC

 

[ltwin]

I know little about the situation, except what was reported in this thread. But the first article says that, a year ago, the Diocese of South Carolina sent quitclaim deeds to every parish in the diocese. A quitclaim deed generally transfers ownership of the property from the party issuing the deed to the recipient. That sure sounds as if the diocese was making it hard for TEC to maintain control of the properties if the Diocese of South Carolina bolted.

You have to understand the history of the Episcopal Church. Before the 1970s, the Episcopal Church NEVER claimed parish property. It was in the 1970s that the General Convention passed a (canonically suspect) canon (the Denis Canon) that established a trust in favor of the national church for all parish property. The problem is that you cannot create a trust in your favor in regards to property that you do not own. The national church never owned parish property, so it cannot claim a trust on property it never owned.

The Diocese of South Carolina was being torn apart by the actions of the national church. Bishop Lawrence was facing defections of parishes who wanted out of the Episcopal Church because it no longer stood for the Gospel. These parishes were also afraid that the Presiding Bishop would remove Bishop Lawrence and then take over the Diocese, instituting the liberal policies of the national church. Instead of suing those parishes to keep them in the Episcopal Church, Bishop Lawrence chose to let them leave. So that other parishes in the Diocese would not fear the eventual take over of their property by the national church at some point in the future, the Diocese chose to give the parishes their property so that they would be confident that their property would be protected and would stay in Diocese and the Episcopal Church.

Plus, the South Carolina Supreme Court declared the Denis Canon unlawful. So, Bishop Lawrence was following the legal reality by giving up the claim that the diocese owned parish property.

There there are the resolutions which announced that the Diocese of South Carolina, not the TEC, would set its own Constitution and Canons.

The Episcopal Church is not hierarchical like the Catholic Church is. The Episcopal Church was created by a confederation of independent state churches after the American Revolution. One of those was the Diocese of South Carolina. In the Episcopal Church, it is the diocese, not the national church, that is hierarchical. Everything above the diocese is an association. Despite what some in the Episcopal Church want to believe.

And a year ago Bishop Lawrence modified the corporate charter, filed with the state government, to indicate this independence.

Yes, the independence that the Diocese of South Carolina has always claimed for itself. It was a founding Diocese of the Episcopal Church. It agreed to abide by the Constitution and Canons of the Episcopal Church. But it never agreed to be eternally bound by them. The first Episcopalians never thought that they were creating a hierarchical church. The Diocese has always been the central body in TEC.

 

[pablope]

I couldn’t make much sense of the underlying issues either.

But this same thing happened here in California with one of the Episcopal dioceses a number of years ago, although I’m sure the issues differ at various points. Basically the seceding bishop was prohibited from acting as bishop by the presiding bishop, there were some fights and lawsuits over property, the people who left associated with various other Anglican splinter groups, a new bishop was appointed, and things sort of went on as before only with fewer people.

In Post 8…It provided more explanation.

I think the Episcopal diocese you are talking about is Stockton. There was a member of this forum who lived there and was a church member of the diocese…who posted the secession here in some threads.

 

[GKC]

In Post 8…It provided more explanation.

I think the Episcopal diocese you are talking about is Stockton. There was a member of this forum who lived there and was a church member of the diocese…who posted the secession here in some threads.

It was the Diocese of San Joaquin.

GKC

 

[GKC]

You have to understand the history of the Episcopal Church. Before the 1970s, the Episcopal Church NEVER claimed parish property. It was in the 1970s that the General Convention passed a (canonically suspect) canon (the Denis Canon) that established a trust in favor of the national church for all parish property. The problem is that you cannot create a trust in your favor in regards to property that you do not own. The national church never owned parish property, so it cannot claim a trust on property it never owned.

The Diocese of South Carolina was being torn apart by the actions of the national church. Bishop Lawrence was facing defections of parishes who wanted out of the Episcopal Church because it no longer stood for the Gospel. These parishes were also afraid that the Presiding Bishop would remove Bishop Lawrence and then take over the Diocese, instituting the liberal policies of the national church. Instead of suing those parishes to keep them in the Episcopal Church, Bishop Lawrence chose to let them leave. So that other parishes in the Diocese would not fear the eventual take over of their property by the national church at some point in the future, the Diocese chose to give the parishes their property so that they would be confident that their property would be protected and would stay in Diocese and the Episcopal Church.

Plus, the South Carolina Supreme Court declared the Denis Canon unlawful. So, Bishop Lawrence was following the legal reality by giving up the claim that the diocese owned parish property.

The Episcopal Church is not hierarchical like the Catholic Church is. The Episcopal Church was created by a confederation of independent state churches after the American Revolution. One of those was the Diocese of South Carolina. In the Episcopal Church, it is the diocese, not the national church, that is hierarchical. Everything above the diocese is an association. Despite what some in the Episcopal Church want to believe.

Yes, the independence that the Diocese of South Carolina has always claimed for itself. It was a founding Diocese of the Episcopal Church. It agreed to abide by the Constitution and Canons of the Episcopal Church. But it never agreed to be eternally bound by them. The first Episcopalians never thought that they were creating a hierarchical church. The Diocese has always been the central body in TEC.

Well said.

GKC

 

[ltwin]

Well said.

GKC

Thanks. Your posts sum up the situation well too. I’m living in Charleston right now, so I’m like at the epicenter of everything.

 

[GKC]

Thanks. Your posts sum up the situation well too. I’m living in Charleston right now, so I’m like at the epicenter of everything.

I love Charleston. Will be making my annual trip in Nov.

GKC

 

[ltwin]

I love Charleston. Will be making my annual trip in Nov.

GKC

It is a great place.

 

[GKC]

It is a great place.

My mother’s family owned land on Johns Island. A road there is named for them.

GKC

 

[Semper_Zelare]

Thank y’all for all the information. This thread is very informative.

However, as most of us here are Catholics, I think the Episcopal Church really only serves as a case in point of what not to do. This whole mess looks like different warring factions fighting over the scraps of a crumbling Church.

I certainly wish the Episcopal Church under Bishop Lawrence in South Carolina well (not sure what title to call them by). But, I just can’t imagine having to do something like that myself. I mean, more power to them, but I think they’re fighting a losing battle.

I mean, all Christian Churches are called to evangelism, but I just can’t imagine even trying to make the case to people that aren’t Episcopalian to join their Church. I would imagine that all the people who could’ve left over internal problems have already done so, and now both camps of the Episcopal Church are likely down to the bare-bones skeleton crew, as it were, of the loyal faithful.

In short, I’m glad our Catholic boat is in calm waters, and doesn’t have to go through the stormy seas that the South Carolinian Episcopalians are.

 

[ltwin]

Thank y’all for all the information. This thread is very informative.

However, as most of us here are Catholics, I think the Episcopal Church really only serves as a case in point of what not to do. This whole mess looks like different warring factions fighting over the scraps of a crumbling Church.

I certainly wish the Episcopal Church under Bishop Lawrence in South Carolina well (not sure what title to call them by). But, I just can’t imagine having to do something like that myself. I mean, more power to them, but I think they’re fighting a losing battle.

I mean, all Christian Churches are called to evangelism, but I just can’t imagine even trying to make the case to people that aren’t Episcopalian to join their Church. I would imagine that all the people who could’ve left over internal problems have already done so, and now both camps of the Episcopal Church are likely down to the bare-bones skeleton crew, as it were, of the loyal faithful.

In short, I’m glad our Catholic boat is in calm waters, and doesn’t have to go through the stormy seas that the South Carolinian Episcopalians are.

Until recently, the Diocese of South Carolina was the only growing diocese in the Episcopal Church. That changed when Bishop Lawrence allowed a number of parishes (including the largest parish in the Diocese to leave), so one could say that being in TEC has hurt the Diocese more than it has helped it.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

In Post 8…It provided more explanation.

I think the Episcopal diocese you are talking about is Stockton. There was a member of this forum who lived there and was a church member of the diocese…who posted the secession here in some threads.

Actually I was thinking about the San Joaquin Diocese, but Stockton may certainly have been a part of that.

 

[pablope]

s

Actually I was thinking about the San Joaquin Diocese, but Stockton may certainly have been a part of that.

I think the diocese was indeed called the San Joaquin…and I think the the diocese HQ was/is in Stockton…in San Joaquin county…that is why I thought Stockton…I could be wrong though…

 

[GKC]

s

I think the diocese was indeed called the San Joaquin…and I think the the diocese HQ was/is in Stockton…in San Joaquin county…that is why I thought Stockton…I could be wrong though…

No, you’re correct.

GKC

 

[Aramis]

I know little about the situation, except what was reported in this thread. But the first article says that, a year ago, the Diocese of South Carolina sent quitclaim deeds to every parish in the diocese. A quitclaim deed generally transfers ownership of the property from the party issuing the deed to the recipient. That sure sounds as if the diocese was making it hard for TEC to maintain control of the properties if the Diocese of South Carolina bolted.

There there are the resolutions which announced that the Diocese of South Carolina, not the TEC, would set its own Constitution and Canons. And a year ago Bishop Lawrence modified the corporate charter, filed with the state government, to indicate this independence.

Sending such quitclaim deeds is a not-uncommon means of civil-judgement-proofing the diocese’s parishes. It’s been done in some Catholic dioceses as well, in order to render each parish it’s own legal entity, and thus not liable for judgements against other parishes nor the diocese. Likewise, if the diocese gets sued, it can’t pay what it doesn’t own.

It also means that those parishes that want to can, in theory, leave the diocese with parish intact, and return to TEC… It’s potentially grounds for further fracturing.

 

[ltwin]

Sending such quitclaim deeds is a not-uncommon means of civil-judgement-proofing the diocese’s parishes. It’s been done in some Catholic dioceses as well, in order to render each parish it’s own legal entity, and thus not liable for judgements against other parishes nor the diocese. Likewise, if the diocese gets sued, it can’t pay what it doesn’t own.

It also means that those parishes that want to can, in theory, leave the diocese with parish intact, and return to TEC… It’s potentially grounds for further fracturing.

Yes, in a dysfunctional diocese it could lead to further fracturing. However, as I said above, there was already fractioning because the agendas of the national church and the diocese are so diametrically opposed at this point.

You have a very small minority of South Carolina Episcopalians (represented by groups such as The Episcopal Forum) that are loyal to the national church, and their loyalty to the national church overrides all other considerations. I would think these people would only be able to carry a few parishes out of the Diocese back into the national church. They certainly would not be enough parishes to re-create a viable diocese.

Then you have a minority of parishes that were so dissatisfied with the national church (but not with the Diocese) that they could no longer stay even in the Diocese. Those parishes have already left, mostly for ACNA.

So, you have core and the majority of the Diocese who are perfectly happy with the leadership of Bishop Lawrence and the direction that the Diocese has taken–staying in TEC for as long as possible and yet forcefully resisting the heresy that TEC’s leadership is trying to force down the Diocese’s throat. These churches are not going anywhere. If they were going to leave, they would have left already. So, in the Diocese of SC’s case, the quitclaim deeds may actually bring the parishes of the Diocese together and make it stronger.

This is in direct contrast to the strategy of TEC, which is to scare conservative parishes into staying by the threat of lawsuit. The Diocese of SC has realized that true unity cannot be built on lawsuits and threats. If there is truly a split in the Episcopal Church, then it isn’t serving anyone if they pretend that everyone is in the same boat when everyone knows they are in different boats.

It should also be noted that Anglicanism in the South Carolina lowcountry has a very long history. The Church of England was the state church of SC up until the Revolution. The local parishes have always been somewhat of an independent nature, and the Diocese has always resisted outside bishops from encroaching on its ecclesiastical authority. Before the American Revolution, SC Anglicans were calling the Bishop of London “worse than a pope.” The Diocese of SC will survive this.

 

[ltwin]

There there are the resolutions which announced that the Diocese of South Carolina, not the TEC, would set its own Constitution and Canons.

I already responded to this post, but after reading it over again I noticed this section. I wanted to point out to those who may not be familiar with TEC’s polity an important point.

TEC has a Constitution and Canon law that governs the national church. But each diocese in TEC also has its own Constitution and its own set of canons.

So, Bishop Lawrence did not make up his own Constitution and Canons from scratch. He and the diocesan convention only amended the already existing Constitution and Canons to protect the Diocese from interference in its internal affairs by a hostile Presiding Bishop and national church infrastructure.

Dioceses are free to make what ever changes to their Constitution and Canons that they want. There is no requirement that these be approved by the national church.

This goes back all the way to the American Revolution, when there was an independent Episcopal Church in each of the 13 states.

 

[Rainaldo]

…If there is truly a split in the Episcopal Church,…

How many Anglican denominations are we looking at already in the US?

 

[Crescentinus]

Something tells me that it may not end well for the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina. O: