Oh, so I’m a liar now, am I?
Yeah, we wouldn’t want to do that. Jesus never spent time with any people He disagreed with and the Pope should surely follow His example.
I was having a little fun at peoples’ expense here but I am no bigot. I should probably apologize for pushing the politically crorrect button on other people. But if you think about it, I was not very far off the mark. Humanistically, of course, we are talking about millions of people and there is only one way to approach them, which is as Christ would have. But in terms of modern political economy, I wasn’t very far off the mark. When do you ever see anything about South America in the news? What fraction of the world economy are they? They may be nice people, but they are an ant in world historical terms. Maybe that’s a good thing. They don’t make wars, at least not very much. Now don’t get me started on Africa.
Doc, I haven’t heard anyone say that they don’t want you to have the Mass (which has what to do with this thread?) or anything else. I hope that the Pope expands the Indult and frees every priest to say it. If the bishops don’t like it, well, they brought it on themselves as far as I’m concerned. None of the above has anything to do with the topic at hand.
For pity’s sake, of COURSE it’s subjective! That doesn’t detract from the fact that YOUR’S is equally subjective. You’ve no notion how to direct an argument.
I doubt that God thinks that these continents are unimportant since he pays attention to even the smallest sparrow. There are easily more Christians in South America and Africa than all of the European states combined.
The thing is its not about being an old fundie and keeping to old fashioned vestments and all. The reason for using the vestments is because it is part of the heritage of the Church along with mitres, chasubles and crosiers and the whole lot. Your determination was mitre, crosier and ring indicates a bishop. But it actually poses a bit of a problem, because traditionally mitre and crosiers and rings have also been used by others like abbots and others of prelatial dignity or jurisdiction. Those three have even been used by women abbessess. Secondly, who makes this determination of what’s essential and what’s not? It will differ from person to person because we all have our opinion on such matters. I may feel lace albs are the standard for all albs and you may feel that they border on the ridiculous.
Please, Kirk. I’m not the one who posted the suggestion that everyone in Africa and South America should be exterminated because they are of no importance. I didn’t derail the thread. I just responded to it.
Could you please tell us what items were given and to whom? I’m just curious because I’ve heard the charges before but never heard the whole story.
We’re getting away from the argument, though, AJV. No one doubts that these insignia are episcopal (as are the silly looking buskins, the pansyish gloves,esp. if they have lot’s of lace, etc.). The question is was it a scandal for Pope Paul VI to give to Lord Ramsey a ring and for Pope John Paul II to give either Lord Runcie or Lord Carey (can’t recall) a pectoral cross?
I take your point about elitism, laddie, I genuinely do. I’ve been looked down the nose by TLMer’s on the right and leftist nuns who’ve accused me of having a pre-VII mindset, so I get that.
I am actually wondering whether the pectoral cross and ring represent episcopal orders? They were given to those of prelatial dignity-including women.- the mitred abbesses are an example of that. I don’t think the abbesses possess Orders. Unless I’m very much mistaken, they can also be used by all cardinals whether they are bishops or not.
What is funny?
Pax tecum!
These examples are certainly compelling - unless, of course, you know that common sense tells us that rings, mitres, and crosses are exclusively episcopal vesture. Even without bringing women into the mix the rock solid tradition of abbatial pontificalia destroys the assertion that rings automatically signify episcopal orders. This is just another thread started to ridicule the popes of the post-conciliar era and instill doubts about the “new order.”
Well said, Andreas.
So you’re suggesting a certain, what, fluidity to how the Church views such things? You’re suggesting that the concepts of ring and cross, mitre and crosier, . weren’t handed down from the Apostles? Well thought out, dear friend.