Episcopal

[timkoat]

When the TEC and PNCC where in communion together they were at each others ordainations.According to Rome PNCC is valid. So TEC priests that were ordained with PNCC bishops are valid priests. Some of these priests are now TEC bishops. When they ordain priest aren’t they valid? So the TEC has valid priests. Tim

 

[bpbasilphx]

I’m not a theologian, but since TEC ordains women as bishops and priests, it seems to be a moot point.

The Ordinal of the 1928 American BCP would probably be considered insufficient, as it’s basically the same as the Edwardian ordinal which was declared invalid in Apostolicae Curiae.

 

[SenorSalsa]

i would respond, but your post looks like alphabet soup to me:shrug:

 

[JonNC]

When the TEC and PNCC where in communion together they were at each others ordainations.According to Rome PNCC is valid. So TEC priests that were ordained with PNCC bishops are valid priests. Some of these priests are now TEC bishops. When they ordain priest aren’t they valid? So the TEC has valid priests. Tim

And TEC bishops participate at ELCA Lutheran ordinations, so they have valid priests as well?

 

[GKC]

I’m not a theologian, but since TEC ordains women as bishops and priests, it seems to be a moot point.

The Ordinal of the 1928 American BCP would probably be considered insufficient, as it’s basically the same as the Edwardian ordinal which was declared invalid in Apostolicae Curiae.

No, the Ordinal reflects the one in the 1662 BCP of the Church of England, which was changed from the Edwardine Ordinal of 1549, which was the one that *Apostolicae Curae *considered defective (though it was only defective in combination with the intent of those who used it. There are a number of Rites of Ordination/Concecration which Rome considers as validly conveying orders which have precisely the same “defect” that *Apostolicae Curae *identified in the Edwardine Ordinal).

 

[GKC]

I’m not a theologian, but since TEC ordains women as bishops and priests, it seems to be a moot point.

The Ordinal of the 1928 American BCP would probably be considered insufficient, as it’s basically the same as the Edwardian ordinal which was declared invalid in Apostolicae Curiae.

It is a valid (so to speak) point for those episcopal lines established in Anglicanism, via joint consecrations between Anglican jurisdictions and the Old Catholics/Utrecht, and the PNCC, back before the Anglican Communion compounded the issue by attempting ordinations/consecrations using invalid matter. Such joint consecrations (not ordinations) go back to 1932, which resulted in a widespread infusion of the Dutch Touch into Anglicanism. Where it continues to be propagated, assuming other compnents are valid (matter, form, intent).

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus

 

[Br_Mark]

Dear Timkoat;

I believe that before one can start a conversation regarding your question, one must get their terms straight. The Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC / of american origins) should not be confused with the Polish Old Catholic Church, which is based in Poland.

Both the PNCC and the POCC were part of the Utrecht Union, the PNCC was kicked out of the Utrecht Union in 2004.

The PNCC claims apostolic succession from both the Old Catholic Church of Utrecht (which has never been questioned) and bishops of the Anglican Communion, which the Episcopal Church is part of.(which has been questioned by Rome).

The PNCC had open communion with the Episcopal Church USA until 1978. However since 2004 the PNCC of Canada has again entered into open communion with the Anglican Church of Canada (which is part of the Anglican Communion).

But regardless of all this information the Catholic Church has deemed apostolic succession null and void in the Anglican Communion; however to make things interesting many Anglican Clergy who have become Roman Catholic priest were not “re-ordained” but were “conditionally ordained”; meaning that their orginal ordination “might” be vaild.

Peace,

Br Mark, OSB

 

[MelanieAnne]

Hi Brother Mark,

Thank you for that explanation. I appreciate it. I was once a confirmed Episcopalian, now Catholic. I was happy with my decision, but I didn’t make it to denigrate the Anglican Communion/Episcopal Church. My decision was made to go forward, not to reject.

The Anglican Communion, including the Episcopal Church in the USA (before they went haywire in the last few decades) kept a lot of traditions that, as a relatively new Catholic, aren’t unfamiliar to me as they might be to someone with a different experience.

When I became a Catholic, I already knew the Mass (with differences and form and substance, but it wasn’t NEW) and, among other things, I already knew some of the most ancient songs. I notice at Mass that I know a lot of things when a lot of other Catholics don’t.

I guess you could say I’ve been confirmed twice now, and that’s OK. But I like to think that my first confirmation wasn’t entirely useless, even though my more recent one is more precious to me. If the converting priests are being given conditional ordinations, I see that as a positive thing.

 

[GKC]

Dear Timkoat;

I believe that before one can start a conversation regarding your question, one must get their terms straight. The Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC / of american origins) should not be confused with the Polish Old Catholic Church, which is based in Poland.

Both the PNCC and the POCC were part of the Utrecht Union, the PNCC was kicked out of the Utrecht Union in 2004.

The PNCC claims apostolic succession from both the Old Catholic Church of Utrecht (which has never been questioned) and bishops of the Anglican Communion, which the Episcopal Church is part of.(which has been questioned by Rome).

The PNCC had open communion with the Episcopal Church USA until 1978. However since 2004 the PNCC of Canada has again entered into open communion with the Anglican Church of Canada (which is part of the Anglican Communion).

But regardless of all this information the Catholic Church has deemed apostolic succession null and void in the Anglican Communion; however to make things interesting many Anglican Clergy who have become Roman Catholic priest were not “re-ordained” but were “conditionally ordained”; meaning that their orginal ordination “might” be vaild.

Peace,

Br Mark, OSB

Only 2 were ordained, sub conditione, as far as I know: Graham Leonard, and John Hughes. If you know of others, I would be glad to learn of them

GKC