Episcopalian/ Anglican services

[gurneyhalleck1]

Having gone to Anglican services many many times even though I’m reverted to Catholicism, I would show respect at an Anglican service, particularly a non-Episcopal one. And Apostolicae Curae is complicated in that many Anglican priests have been affected by the “Dutch Touch” years ago after Apostolicae Curae was written. Many Anglican services have a valid Eucharist despite being illicit in the eyes of we Roman Catholics.

The Anglican liturgy is a beautiful one to be sure and I would be respectful to the people of that church that have invited me. I would not “step out” during certain parts of the service out of offense. You’d be better off not attending at all than to be disrespectful.

I guess my opinion is tainted by having been Anglican and still having an affection for the liturgy they have and dignity of their service.

I also understand GKC’s point completely and don’t understand why EmeraldCoast was offended of taking issue with his statement?

I myself would participate and show respect. But that’s just me…As a Roman Catholic, I find it wonderful to see visitors kneel during the consecration even though they’re protestant. They don’t have to but choose to out of respect.

This is a situation where I could understand either approach.

 

[GKC]

Having gone to Anglican services many many times even though I’m reverted to Catholicism, I would show respect at an Anglican service, particularly a non-Episcopal one. And Apostolicae Curae is complicated in that many Anglican priests have been affected by the “Dutch Touch” years ago after Apostolicae Curae was written. Many Anglican services have a valid Eucharist despite being illicit in the eyes of we Roman Catholics.

The Anglican liturgy is a beautiful one to be sure and I would be respectful to the people of that church that have invited me. I would not “step out” during certain parts of the service out of offense. You’d be better off not attending at all than to be disrespectful.

I guess my opinion is tainted by having been Anglican and still having an affection for the liturgy they have and dignity of their service.

I also understand GKC’s point completely and don’t understand why EmeraldCoast was offended of taking issue with his statement?

I myself would participate and show respect. But that’s just me…As a Roman Catholic, I find it wonderful to see visitors kneel during the consecration even though they’re protestant. They don’t have to but choose to out of respect.

This is a situation where I could understand either approach.

I seem to be affecting more folk, here and there, now and then, that way, of late.

Age, I suspect.

GKC

 

[pipper]

Having gone to Anglican services many many times even though I’m reverted to Catholicism, I would show respect at an Anglican service, particularly a non-Episcopal one. And Apostolicae Curae is complicated in that many Anglican priests have been affected by the “Dutch Touch” years ago after Apostolicae Curae was written. Many Anglican services have a valid Eucharist despite being illicit in the eyes of we Roman Catholics.

The Anglican liturgy is a beautiful one to be sure and I would be respectful to the people of that church that have invited me. I would not “step out” during certain parts of the service out of offense. You’d be better off not attending at all than to be disrespectful.

I guess my opinion is tainted by having been Anglican and still having an affection for the liturgy they have and dignity of their service.

I also understand GKC’s point completely and don’t understand why EmeraldCoast was offended of taking issue with his statement?

I myself would participate and show respect. But that’s just me…As a Roman Catholic, I find it wonderful to see visitors kneel during the consecration even though they’re protestant. They don’t have to but choose to out of respect.

This is a situation where I could understand either approach.

I’m getting just a little confused by all of this, perhaps due to my Catholic orientation.

But I thought all Episcopal churches in the USA, were well… Episcopalain. And Anglican churches were in the UK.

Are there unknown to me several Episcopal chuurches in America, or are their schismatic “anglicans” that are like our own sedevaticanists that are also schismatics?

What is the difference in the USA, between Episcopalians and Anglicans?

I’m getting more confused by the minute.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m getting just a little confused by all of this, perhaps due to my Catholic orientation.

But I thought all Episcopal churches in the USA, were well… Episcopalain. And Anglican churches were in the UK.

Are there unknown to me several Episcopal chuurches in America, or are their schismatic “anglicans” that are like our own sedevaticanists that are also schismatics?

What is the difference in the USA, between Episcopalians and Anglicans?

I’m getting more confused by the minute.

Hey Pipper,

A good question. Episcopalians are part of the worldwide Anglican Communion. They sometimes call themselves Anglican but more often than not, Episcopalian or Episcopal. The Episcopal Church (TEC) is very very liberal allowing anything from women’s “ordination” to gay marriages to turning a blind eye to abortion (or supporting abortion rights) to cohabitation and all the other elements of the liberal pop culture.

There are parishes and even whole dioceses that got fed up with the national church’s liberal agenda and broke off, especially recently. They call themselves Anglicans and most I know would flip their lids if you called them Episcopalian. They use the term Anglican more to denote their heritage in the communion but to make sure they’re NOT confused with Episcopalians. There is continuing Anglican, reformed Anglicans, and just plain old Anglicans like the diocese in my area that broke off from the liberal Episcopalians and joined the Southern Cone of South America.

So, in short, Episcopalian and Anglicans both sprang from the Church of England and can claim the title “Anglican” but both definitely wouldn’t be down with the Episcopalian term.

I have a good friend who ate with Bishop John-David Schofield, the former Bishop of San Joaquin here in the valley (Calif.) and who took his entire diocese out of the Episcopal Church. He used to call himself an Episcopalian. At the dinner, everyone at the table was now Roman Catholic. He started the dinner saying, “well one thing we all have in common at this table—we’re all former Episcopalians!” Everybody laughed. That sums it up I think…

 

[Mystagogy]

…

Some suggestions…

Why not pray for unity within the churches when we are kneeling? You could also pray and reflect on the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ through the words that are said even if you don’t believe that our Eucharist is the body and blood of Jesus. What about praying for the couple that are being married? What about praying for the family of the person’s funeral you are attending? You could also pray the rosary during the consecration.

God Bless!

Thanks for all the responses. We don’t vote for “best answer” here, but I like this the best.

I’ll probably run this past an apologist for polishing. I’d also love to meet gurneyhalleck1 some day. We’re both from the San Joaquin Valley. (Actually, I’d like to meet any and all of you.)

What prompted my original post was attendance at a “high church” Episcopalian service for a neighbor, and a subsequent planning of trip to London. (My wife won the right to men’s semifinal tickets to the Wimbledon matches this summer.)

-OP (not to be confused with OG, despite my fandom of the Opera Ghost.)

 

[LDNCatholic]

Hi LDNCatholic,

Tell me if I were to remain seated when the Catholic priest asked me to stand or kneel that this would not be disrespectful. I am a guest at the Catholic Church and I should be respectful and polite. Nothing bad is going to happen to me if I get down on my knees and pray to God.

I would have no problem with you remaining seated or not kneeling. I have brought guests to church from non Christian backgrounds and told them exactly what is happening and why we kneel. If they want to they can kneel-they often do-but if they just wish to observe I tell them to just stay in their seat. What I would not do is tell them they should bow to something they see as just a piece of bread, which is why I will not kneel before an Anglican attempt at the Blessed Sacrament.

I was angered last Easter when we walked with the Anglicans on Good Friday when we were invited into their church to kneel before their sacrament, many Catholics instinctively knelt and prayed, we removed ourselves pretty quickly.

If the Anglican churches (with all due respect) cannot agree amongst themselves who does and doesn’t have a valid Eucharist how can I view it as anything else but a piece of bread?

Some suggestions…

Why not pray for unity within the churches when we are kneeling? You could also pray and reflect on the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ through the words that are said even if you don’t believe that our Eucharist is the body and blood of Jesus. What about praying for the couple that are being married? What about praying for the family of the person’s funeral you are attending? You could also pray the rosary during the consecration.

God Bless!

I do not need to kneel before what I percieve as a false altar and a false consecration in order to pray. But yes, those are good suggestions. Of course when I think of unity you understand I might have a very different view of what that unity should be.

If I am to pray I don’t need a vicars words to guide it. The rosary, as you pointed out, can be prayed as a reminder of the Passion.

Again, I have to ask emeraldcoast, what was wrong with what GKC said?

 

[LDNCatholic]

What prompted my original post was attendance at a “high church” Episcopalian service for a neighbor, and a subsequent planning of trip to London. (My wife won the right to men’s semifinal tickets to the Wimbledon matches this summer.

There are plenty of Catholic churches in London, you don’t need to go to an Anglican service when you can attend Mass.

 

[Mystagogy]

There are plenty of Catholic churches in London, you don’t need to go to an Anglican service when you can attend Mass.

Thanks. I intend to attend Catholic mass. Also, there are plenty of historical sites that used to be Catholic, have wonderful architecture, or art work or other reasons that make them worth the visit.

 

[LDNCatholic]

Thanks. I intend to attend Catholic mass. Also, there are plenty of historical sites that used to be Catholic, have wonderful architecture, or art work or other reasons that make them worth the visit.

Quite right. We have two churches in our little part of London that were built during the Crusades. Protestant now unfortunately but still worth a visit. All I meant was that participation in their services was not necessary.

Off topic- Where are you planning to visit?

 

[emeraldcoast]

I’m getting just a little confused by all of this, perhaps due to my Catholic orientation.

But I thought all Episcopal churches in the USA, were well… Episcopalain. And Anglican churches were in the UK.

Are there unknown to me several Episcopal chuurches in America, or are their schismatic “anglicans” that are like our own sedevaticanists that are also schismatics?

What is the difference in the USA, between Episcopalians and Anglicans?

I’m getting more confused by the minute.

As an Episcopalian, I am also an Anglican. There are however schismatic"anglicans" or breakaway churches here in the USA. I prefer to stay away from those type of churches and stay with a Church that is in full Communion with the See of Canterbury. I love it when we see people on the net try to label Episcopalians all as Liberals-- I am a Republican and voted for McCain.

Have a blessed day!

 

[emeraldcoast]

Thanks for all the responses. We don’t vote for “best answer” here, but I like this the best.

I’ll probably run this past an apologist for polishing. I’d also love to meet gurneyhalleck1 some day. We’re both from the San Joaquin Valley. (Actually, I’d like to meet any and all of you.)

What prompted my original post was attendance at a “high church” Episcopalian service for a neighbor, and a subsequent planning of trip to London. (My wife won the right to men’s semifinal tickets to the Wimbledon matches this summer.)

-OP (not to be confused with OG, despite my fandom of the Opera Ghost.)

If you get a chance while you are in England, please attend Evensong at an Anglican Church.

God Bless!

 

[Mystagogy]

Off topic- Where are you planning to visit?

We’ll be staying in the Mayfair district, planning to see The Mousetrap, Madonna,and unscheduled :
Lansdown House (Wm Pitt, Jr., Harry Gordon Selfridge)
Wellington Arch
Hyde Park (Diana Memorial 7 mi. walk)
Marble Arch
Harrods

Hard Rock Cafe (Original)
Piccadilly St. (Ritz Hotel, Park Lane Hotel)
Green Park
Clarence House

A&V
Buckingham Palace
St.James Square
Churchill & Roosevelt (Grafton & New Bond Sts, nr.Sotheby’s)
Westminster Abby, Big Ben, House of Commons
Piccadilly Circus, Piccadilly Theatre (Grease?)
University of Arts London? (Stanley Kubrik collection)
London Eye
British Museum
Tate Britain and Tate Modern
Trafalgar Square/Parliament
Thames boat ride to Greenwich
St. Paul’s
Globe Theatre

 

[Mystagogy]

If you get a chance while you are in England, please attend Evensong at an Anglican Church.

God Bless!

Thanks. We’re truly blessed with this resource and its many posters.

Do you have a specific recommendation, Mayfair and environs?

 

[LDNCatholic]

Thanks. We’re truly blessed with this resource and its many posters.

Do you have a specific recommendation, Mayfair and environs?

No expert but St. Paul’s or the Abbey may be a good place to look.

You should pop in to the Cathedral too if you have time, not as famous as the Abby but quite beautiful.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I don’t see how my method – to step out during those portions of the Anglican/protestant services with which I cannot conscientiously give physical (verbal & mental is easier - just be silent) assent - is offensive… I am stepping out to PREVENT offense that my non-participation may indirectly cause.

As to the so-called “Dutch Touch”, the DT would only be valid if the ordination took place in a valid form… the DT itself is not enough… Part of the invalidity of Anglican Ordinands (according to the Catholic Church) has to do with de-sacrificiality of the ordination prayers - the DT isn’t the cure.

Also, I’ve heard and read numerous Anglicans claim that the Catholic position is of no consequence since the Orthodox supposedly accept Anglicans as valid… that claim is absolutely false. The Orthodox do not accept Anglican orders, nor do they use that language “valid/invalid”; all Orthodox bishops would ordain an Anglican clergyman as he would a layman should he convert to Orthodoxy.

 

[GKC]

I don’t see how my method – to step out during those portions of the Anglican/protestant services with which I cannot conscientiously give physical (verbal & mental is easier - just be silent) assent - is offensive… I am stepping out to PREVENT offense that my non-participation may indirectly cause.

As to the so-called “Dutch Touch”, the DT would only be valid if the ordination took place in a valid form… the DT itself is not enough… Part of the invalidity of Anglican Ordinands (according to the Catholic Church) has to do with de-sacrificiality of the ordination prayers - the DT isn’t the cure.

Also, I’ve heard and read numerous Anglicans claim that the Catholic position is of no consequence since the Orthodox supposedly accept Anglicans as valid… that claim is absolutely false. The Orthodox do not accept Anglican orders, nor do they use that language “valid/invalid”; all Orthodox bishops would ordain an Anglican clergyman as he would a layman should he convert to Orthodoxy.

The defective form alleged in *Apostolicae Curae *(which was intertwined with the concept of defective intention; both must be considered together) was changed in the Ordinal in 1662. That is, the form used in all cases since the joint consecrations began between Anglicans and the OCs (1932) and the PNCC (1946) didn’t contain the alleged defect. A comparision between the current Ordinal, the Pontificale Romanum of the 16th century, and the current revised Pontificale Romanum is instructive. The infusion of the OC/PNCC lines, with a valid form and intent, is the issue, on this point.

What you say about the Orthodox is certainly correct. Any Anglican who says otherwise is not well informed.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[SpiritMeadow]

It seems to me that anyone who considers the Episcopal alter “false” and the consecration “invalid” and the host mere bread, should do everyone a favor and just not go in. I rather imagine such a person wouldn’t eat with tax collectors or ask for water from a Samaritan either.

 

[tomarin]

I love it when we see people on the net try to label Episcopalians all as Liberals-- I am a Republican and voted for McCain.

I suppose it’s possible to be politically conservative but theologically liberal (or at least a member of a theologically liberal church).

 

[LDNCatholic]

It seems to me that anyone who considers the Episcopal alter “false” and the consecration “invalid” and the host mere bread, should do everyone a favor and just not go in. I rather imagine such a person wouldn’t eat with tax collectors or ask for water from a Samaritan either.

Ridiculous comparison. Just because I do not pay reverance to a piece of bread ‘‘consecrated’’ by an imitation of a Catholic priest I am somehow less Christlike? If I don’t believe everything your splintered Church professes I am less of a Christian? If anything avoiding this conscious idolatry is far more Christian.

I apologise to anyone who take offence as this is not my intention but I feel sometimes a sharp response is the only one appropriate to such ridiculous conclusions.

I have Anglican family. We march with the Anglicans on Good Friday. I will not worship your way however as I do not believe as you do. As a Catholic I will remind my co-religionists that we do not worship as you do (even GKC, a non Catholic, does that, as he knows it is not right to trick people into worshipping his way, or masking how serious it is like some seem to do).

 

[SyroMalankara]

GKC,

Here’s the opposing perspective from a Latin scholastic, that the so-called DT doesn’t fix…

From the Eastern (Catholic and Orthodox) perspective, DT changes nothing, Anglican ordinations are outside the Church. If an individual Anglican minister wishes to convert, he will be ordained not conditionally, but as from the lay state.