Episcopalian/ Anglican services

[SpiritMeadow]

Ridiculous comparison. Just because I do not pay reverance to a piece of bread ‘‘consecrated’’ by an imitation of a Catholic priest I am somehow less Christlike? If I don’t believe everything your splintered Church professes I am less of a Christian? If anything avoiding this conscious idolatry is far more Christian.

I apologise to anyone who take offence as this is not my intention but I feel sometimes a sharp response is the only one appropriate to such ridiculous conclusions.

I have Anglican family. We march with the Anglicans on Good Friday. I will not worship your way however as I do not believe as you do. As a Catholic I will remind my co-religionists that we do not worship as you do (even GKC, a non Catholic, does that, as he knows it is not right to trick people into worshipping his way, or masking how serious it is like some seem to do).

I don’t think it’s at all a false comparison. I think it’s real. There are a bunch of folks here who don’t act in any way that resembles what Jesus taught. No one asked you or anyone to give “reverence” to something you don’t believe, but common courtesy dictates reasonable respect such as sitting quietly. What is not acceptable is to continue to speak in such unkind terms about things that others take seriously and piously. Your words bespeak only an intent to hurt others. You do it under the guise of stating some “truth” which in fact is nothing more than the official teaching of your church. It is opinion, and opinion you are free to accept as true, but you cannot portray it as such to the world at large.

I am with Emeraldcoast here. Our church has had occassion to have RC’s attend our services for any number of reasons, and they do not act in any manner than suggests any distaste or revulsion. They don’t have to alert us that they don’t believe our priests are valid, or our Eucharist nothing but bread.

You can believe as I said what you will, but your actions here, are just attempts to be rude and unkind because you know that you can get away with it. Say it to someone face to face? I doubt you would.

I am aware of the esteem GKC is held by most RC’s. Of course, it is because he agrees with you on these issues and agrees with your methodology of announcing them. I do not.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

No matter what, a female “priestess” or “bishop” can never consecrate the bread and wine in the Most Holy Eucharist. With “Dutch Touch” or any other means. It is utterly null and void in every circumstance.

But you see we aren’t trying to do so in your church, and we can in our church and that is all that matters to us. You opinion on the validity of ours is noted and filed in file 13.

 

[GKC]

I don’t think it’s at all a false comparison. I think it’s real. There are a bunch of folks here who don’t act in any way that resembles what Jesus taught. No one asked you or anyone to give “reverence” to something you don’t believe, but common courtesy dictates reasonable respect such as sitting quietly. What is not acceptable is to continue to speak in such unkind terms about things that others take seriously and piously. Your words bespeak only an intent to hurt others. You do it under the guise of stating some “truth” which in fact is nothing more than the official teaching of your church. It is opinion, and opinion you are free to accept as true, but you cannot portray it as such to the world at large.

I am with Emeraldcoast here. Our church has had occassion to have RC’s attend our services for any number of reasons, and they do not act in any manner than suggests any distaste or revulsion. They don’t have to alert us that they don’t believe our priests are valid, or our Eucharist nothing but bread.

You can believe as I said what you will, but your actions here, are just attempts to be rude and unkind because you know that you can get away with it. Say it to someone face to face? I doubt you would.

Yes and you can uphold GKC as being a proper Anglican, knowing his place.

What I know is history, the place is *Anglicanus Catholicus.
*
GKC

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I’m sorry you feel that way. I’ve never called the Episcopal altar “false”, although I do call the consecration “invalid” (or, rather, uncertain, in view of the Dutch Touch question). Nevertheless, I believe that I’ve always behaved quite well whenever I’ve been at an Episcopal liturgy.

P.S. I get the impression that you’re really trying to punish all Catholics for the rudeness of a small number of Catholics.

My response is directed at those who spoke so disparagingly about Anglican “altars” etc. If one feels this kind of disgust, one should in good conscience not go in. All the RC I have ever seen in a EC have behaved well, in fact they drew no attention to themselves whatsoever. Other denominations have done as well.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Nor I yours, Edwin. Your opinion weighs about that of an earwig with me. You’re a moral relativist in an anything-goes, feel-good, morals-free denomination that is crumbling, getting old, and losing parishoners. That’s why you guys have to sue the pants off people breaking off. Anglicanism of the Episcopalian variety is becoming irrelevent; you yourself know that as well.

The only mistake I made today was taking you off my ignore list and actually reading what you have to say. In that regard, I was foolish! I’m now putting you back on my pie-in-the-sky, theologically-out-there ignore list. I hope you’ll do the same for me…

As they say on Saturday Night Live…buh-bye!

Your hatred of TEC is palpable and colors everything you say to a degree that it is hard to read you at all. Your personal attack on Contarini is way over the top, and I don’t agree with him on much. But he seems a fine and respectful person. That is about all one can ask for on this site unfortunately. You owe an apology

 

[Contarini]

You’re a moral relativist

I’m nothing of the sort, and if you bothered to have genuine conversations instead of simply ranting you would see that.

Misrepresenting people, as you did to Rowan Williams, is absolutely wrong. Period. Always wrong. You sinned against truth and justice (leaving charity out of it) in what you said.

Now am I a moral relativist?

Edwin

 

[GKC]

I’m nothing of the sort, and if you bothered to have genuine conversations instead of simply ranting you would see that.

Misrepresenting people, as you did to Rowan Williams, is absolutely wrong. Period. Always wrong. You sinned against truth and justice (leaving charity out of it) in what you said.

Now am I a moral relativist?

Edwin

No. He isn’t.

GKC

 

[SpiritMeadow]

What I know is history, the place is *Anglicanus Catholicus.
*
GKC

I edited this to remove that last line because I thought it uncharitible. There is no doubt in my mind that you think you know more than any living human being and more than most that are long dead. I surely hope that you can find your way to Roman Catholicism, you certainly will be much happier there it seems.

 

[GKC]

I edited this to remove that last line because I thought it uncharitible. There is no doubt in my mind that you think you know more than any living human being and more than most that are long dead. I surely hope that you can find your way to Roman Catholicism, you certainly will be much happier there it seems.

Nope. Unable to make the trip. I know too much history. It rankles my friends on the other side of the river, sometimes, too.

And I’m pretty sure I don’t know more than any living human being. Just more than most,in places like this, on most of the subjects I engage on. It’s how I pick the subjects.

GKC

 

[Peter_J]

There are a bunch of folks here who don’t act in any way that resembles what Jesus taught.

Absolutely. Which is why I like the “Ignore List” feature.

My response is directed at those who spoke so disparagingly about Anglican “altars” etc. If one feels this kind of disgust, one should in good conscience not go in.

Definitely.

 

[BernadetteM]

I am a former Epsicopalian (Anglo-Catholic). When I belonged to that parish and even now I believe that the priest had valid but illicit orders. He is now a Catholic priest.

When I went back for a visit something was missing. I believe that new rector did not have valid orders and that is what was missing. To me the Eucharist was not valid. It is difficult to explain this feeling. It just felt empty. Although those were my feelings I had no problem joining in most of the service. I sang the hymns. I did not genuflect, but to me there was nothing to genuflect to.

I felt a sadness for the parish. Also when I went there as a member, it was closed communion and now any one can receive. I don’t understand this as it is a continuing Anglican parish.

I saw many of my old friends there and enjoyed being there and showed respect as I would in any protestant church. I have gone to many protestant churches years ago and participated singing, as they were not liturgical churches. I feel that people should always show respect for any church they are visiting or not visit them.

We all make our choices on where the Lord leads us and although we all believe that we have the truth there is no reason to show disrespect for other’s beliefs and choice of worship. I surely don’t want someone coming into my parish and being rude.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[Peter_J]

I am a former Epsicopalian (Anglo-Catholic). When I belonged to that parish and even now I believe that the priest had valid but illicit orders. He is now a Catholic priest.

When I went back for a visit something was missing. I believe that new rector did not have valid orders and that is what was missing. ** To me the Eucharist was not valid. It is difficult to explain this feeling. It just felt empty. **

I’m probably treading in a sensitive area here, but quite frankly I wouldn’t put a lot of stock in the feelings you had during the liturgy. (I know I’ve been to a lot of masses that didn’t feel right to me at all, but which were presided over by Catholic priests who were undoubtedly validly ordained.)

Although those were my feelings I had no problem joining in most of the service. I sang the hymns. I did not genuflect, but to me there was nothing to genuflect to.

I felt a sadness for the parish. Also when I went there as a member, it was closed communion and now any one can receive. I don’t understand this as it is a continuing Anglican parish.

I saw many of my old friends there and enjoyed being there and showed respect as I would in any protestant church. I have gone to many protestant churches years ago and participated singing, as they were not liturgical churches. I feel that people should always show respect for any church they are visiting or not visit them.

We all make our choices on where the Lord leads us and although we all believe that we have the truth there is no reason to show disrespect for other’s beliefs and choice of worship. I surely don’t want someone coming into my parish and being rude.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

Well said. I get the impression that some people feel they are “entitled” to attend whatever liturgy or religious ceremony they feel like attending, even if they have no respect for it.

 

[LDNCatholic]

My response is directed at those who spoke so disparagingly about Anglican “altars” etc. If one feels this kind of disgust, one should in good conscience not go in. All the RC I have ever seen in a EC have behaved well, in fact they drew no attention to themselves whatsoever. Other denominations have done as well.

That’d be me then. I’m not disgusted with the Anglican denomination. I merely refuse to worship in their way. I will continue to pray alongside them at Good Friday, and on Armistice Day, and march with them on our ecumenical procession of Witness, I will attend weddings, funerals, baptisms and confirmations there. Not because I think their communion is valid (it is not) but because I have been invited.

I chose to respond positively to this invitation. When I am invited to bow before an unblessed piece of bread, or worse, to recieve it as if it is the Eucharist when I know otherwise, I am afraid my response to that invitation will be ‘‘no, thank you’’.

Again, sorry for any offence caused but I really can’t see how refusing idolatry is somehow less Christ like.

 

[kuanyin]

I am a recent convert from the Traditional Anglican movement, in fact about half of our church left and most of us have converted or are in the process of doing so. I know our former church took great pride in being “more Catholic than the Catholics”. I considered myself Catholic and went to R.C. masses when I couldn’t go to Anglican ones. And we didn’t consider Episcopalian masses valid, I wouldn’t have taken the Eucharist in an ECUSA church. I realize now that it was wrong to take communion in the Roman church, but I was told I was as Catholic as anybody, and I pretty much believed it. I was lied to about quite a few things, it turned out.

I am planning on going to an Anglican service soon, because I have a dear friend who is a priest and I want to see him. I will go to mass on Sat. aft. and then to the Anglican church on Sunday. I will follow in all ways except for the Eucharist. Prayers are prayers. My husband will probably take the Eucharist, because he still prefers the Anglican liturgy and he doesn’t follow “rules” very well. He is a cradle Catholic and has that option. I stood as an adult and vowed to accept the Church teachings and that means a lot to me. Besides I’m so grateful to have finally made it!

BTW, my “regular” R.C. mass is an Anglican Use service. I apologize for not reading 7 pages of posts, it probably has been noted here that these are valid Roman masses. Very beautiful too.

 

[pipper]

The question then becomes who left the FAITH. The church is first and foremost the Faith, not the building or the hierarchy, despite the Episcopal church running around suing anyone who wants to keep the property they paid for, along with their faith.

As a continuing Anglican, we are continuing the same faith the Episcopals had 50 years ago. Someone strayed from the faith. Could it be the Episcopals with women priests and openly homosexual bishops?

You really need to figure out who left what here. There comes a time when people must take a stand against heresy and proclaim “Jesus Chist is the same, yesterday, today and forever…”

The proper word is Episcopalian and I am fairly sure you know that, just more hate and “pileing on”?

What I see here is an odd disconnect on the Part of the Roman Catholics (as opposed to anglo “Catholics”).

In our own church we have little regard for sede-vaticanists, schismatics in our own midst. But when it comes to episcopal “anglican” schismatics the majority are all for it. That is the ignored problem I keep pointing out, that everyone dissregards.

Are the Catholics here just excited to see people who hate homosexuals I am not a homosexual myself before anyony accuses me, but I do not hate them either, and agrees politically with very conservative Cathlolics.

Is that the trump card. hating homosexuals and being very conservative that rules everything here?

Yes I have read the official church policy on homosexuality, and agree with everyword of it. And yet I do not see a word about using abusive language in re to them. Or the Episcopal “bishop” of New Hampshire for that matter.

I thought that we were to accept our homosexual brothers and sisters, as sick sinners just like ourselves and not to seperate them out as “special” sinners in need of “special” condemnation. Even though they may be intrinsicly disordered. the state of being homosexual is not in and of itself sinfull, it is the acts of homosexuals that are sinfull.

I am aware that there are homosexuals who have been chaste thier entire lives. IMHO they should be treated the same as everybody else in the church, penitent sinners.

 

[GKC]

The proper word is Episcopalian and I am fairly sure you know that, just more hate and “pileing on”?

What I see here is an odd disconnect on the Part of the Roman Catholics (as opposed to anglo “Catholics”).

In our own church we have little regard for sede-vaticanists, schismatics in our own midst. But when it comes to episcopal “anglican” schismatics the majority are all for it. That is the ignored problem I keep pointing out, that everyone dissregards.

Are the Catholics here just excited to see people who hate homosexuals I am not a homosexual myself before anyony accuses me, but I do not hate them either, and agrees politically with very conservative Cathlolics.

Is that the trump card. hating homosexuals and being very conservative that rules everything here?

Yes I have read the official church policy on homosexuality, and agree with everyword of it. And yet I do not see a word about using abusive language in re to them. Or the Episcopal “bishop” of New Hampshire for that matter.

I thought that we were to accept our homosexual brothers and sisters, as sick sinners just like ourselves and not to seperate them out as “special” sinners in need of “special” condemnation. Even though they may be intrinsicly disordered. the state of being homosexual is not in and of itself sinfull, it is the acts of homosexuals that are sinfull.

I am aware that there are homosexuals who have been chaste thier entire lives. IMHO they should be treated the same as everybody else in the church, penitent sinners.

I agree with your last two paragraphs.

GKC

 

[jay29]

But you see we aren’t trying to do so in your church, and we can in our church and that is all that matters to us. You opinion on the validity of ours is noted and filed in file 13.

The reason why you have female “priestesses” is because of feminism and not theology.

There is no possible way that any female on this planet, no matter where her orders came from, EVEN FROM A DISSIDENT CATHOLIC BISHOP, can consecrate bread and wine into the Lord’s Precious Body and Blood. It starts out as bread and wine and it remains as such. You might as well join the baptists when it comes to the “Lord’s Supper”

 

[RevDrNorth]

That’d be me then. I’m not disgusted with the Anglican denomination. I merely refuse to worship in their way. I will continue to pray alongside them at Good Friday, and on Armistice Day, and march with them on our ecumenical procession of Witness, I will attend weddings, funerals, baptisms and confirmations there. Not because I think their communion is valid (it is not) but because I have been invited.

I chose to respond positively to this invitation. When I am invited to bow before an unblessed piece of bread, or worse, to recieve it as if it is the Eucharist when I know otherwise, I am afraid my response to that invitation will be ‘‘no, thank you’’.

Again, sorry for any offence caused but I really can’t see how refusing idolatry is somehow less Christ like.

That is fine. I am sure you will not take offense when an Eastern Orthodox person regards Catholic sacraments the same way. They do not, as I understand it, consider Roman Catholic orders or sacraments valid. In addition from their point of view the RCC departed from the Catholic Church in schism. So I do not imagine they would reverence your flat bread either

So as you see Anglicans…Orthodox see you. I hope you do not take offense either.

As GKC notes many Anglican (esp Continuing) do have valid orders since the Edwardian ordinal was fixed (if it was ever broken) a long…long time ago AND many Anglican clergy have valid lines through the Old Catholics who were in communion with the Anglican Communion and whom the RCC recognize.

However, in practical terms that would be difficult for any Catholic to figure out before service so just follow the RCC guidance and do not take part in Anglican sacraments. No need as someone suggested to make a big show of yourself (draw attention) by walking out in the middle of the Eucharist as that would be rude and uncharitable. Just don’t take part…make a spiritual communion, etc.

C-H-A-R-I-T-Y

PS I have a great deal of respect for the RCC (theology, etc). I think Fr. Corapi and Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen are fantastic. I even pray the rosary.

 

[SyroMalankara]

No need as someone suggested to make a big show of yourself (draw attention) by walking out in the middle of the Eucharist as that would be rude and uncharitable. Just don’t take part…make a spiritual communion, etc.

That would be me… and usually no one notices when I walk out… must be because I am quiet and respectful when I do so… for example, I don’t walk out when everyone is about to kneel (but the Anglicans that I am affiliated with do not kneel at all, so this makes it easier)… I do select a seat near the outside aisle… I would, if the option were available, sit in the back so as to not distract the regular attendees…

Not quite sure what “make a spiritual communion” means in this regard

I am sure you will not take offense when an Eastern Orthodox person regards Catholic sacraments the same way. They do not, as I understand it, consider Roman Catholic orders or sacraments valid. In addition from their point of view the RCC departed from the Catholic Church in schism. So I do not imagine they would reverence your flat bread either

Actually, Orthodox do not use the term ‘valid’. The Eastern Orthodox position of Catholic Eucharist varies dependent on the particularities (for example, some places in the Middle East, there is no distinction made between Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Eucharist; but in Greece, one would be hard pressed to find any Orthodox acknowledgment that Catholics even exist), but no Orthodox do not view Catholics the same way Catholics see Episcopalians.
The Oriental Orthodox generally regard Catholic Eucharist as “grace-filled” and even allow their members to receive in certain conditions (for example, Armenians, Syriac, Indians, have joint inter-communion agreements in certain circumstances.

 

[BernadetteM]

Kuanyin,

I was just wondering which Anglican Use parish you attend. If you do there is much of the Anglican liturgy there. I wonder why if this is so that your husband would rather attend the Anglican liturgy and not the Anglican Use.

Welcome to CAF.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette